The Discussion

[vicki]

Hi, all! The discussion of LRK's second standalone novel, Folly, starts on September 1. Hope to see you then!

In the meantime, check out the VBC's August discussion (http://www.laurierking.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=403) of Kay Redfield Jamison's An Unquiet Mind, which gives some great background information on issues faced by the protagonist of Folly, Rae Newborn.

<edit> Also check out LRK's introduction (http://www.laurierking.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=10246#post10246) to the discussion!

[vicki]

It's September 1 (Happy Labor Day!) and the discussion is open. Step up to the mike and share your thoughts about Folly!

As noted in the post just above, last month's discussion focused on An Unquiet Mind by Kay Redfield Jamison, which was a source that LRK drew on in writing Folly. If you don't have time to read Jamison's book, check out this excellent video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxRLap9xLag) of her speaking about her illness. Much of this appears in some form in that book, and it serves as good background for reading and discussing Folly.

Incidentally, Folly is a particular favorite of mine for a number of reasons, not the least of which is my fascination with the building/restoration process Rae goes through in the course of the story. I've never built so much as a bird-house, but I feel as if I got some vicarious building experience by virtue of peering over Rae's shoulder as she did her work. :)

[jtb1951]

I have just started re-reading Folly, one of my favorite LRK's, so I can hopefully offer some intelligent commentary later, and in the first few pages of the book I was struck by one of life's little coincidences. Earlier, in my greetings response to Lauren in the Introduce Yourself forum, I mentioned Thomas Merton as a spiritual hero of mine, and lo and behold, on page 5 of Folly, there is Ed De La Torre, thinking thoughts of Thomas Merton, even to the level of detail that indicates the author was aware of the manner of Merton's accidental (unresolved suspicions!) death. Just something that struck me and I felt compelled to share:)!

John.

[Elfin3]

It was after reading "Folly" that I was listening to the Indigo Girls' song "Hammer and A Nail" and was brought right back to it.

[KarenB]

This is a weird leap, but as I was reading the bit about Rae tossing her meds into the bay with a plink and a plunk, I was reminded of Robert McCloskey's book, Blueberries for Sal, and the sound the berries made as they hit the bottom of her pail - kerplink, kerplunk.

On a more serious note, the descriptions in this book are so incredibly evocative - the emotions, the feel of the wood, etc. are so tangible. How does she write like that?

[tangential1]

Sadly, I was unable to get my hands on a copy of An Unquiet Mind for last months discussion. I have it on request at two different libraries, though, so maybe I'll get hold of it before the end of this month and I can do a simultaneous read?

Anyway, really excited to be rereading Folly. I felt very connected to the setting, the San Juans, because I spend quite a bit of family time up that way. On one of our trips to the islands, we even managed to have our own private corner of an island, with it's own dock and everything (a friend of my cousin had purchased the land with plans to build a house, but hadn't begun building yet). Not a whole island to ourselves like Rae, but probably as close as you could get. And it was amazing; something I'll never forget.

And I noticed something right at the beginning of the reread that I missed the first time through. The reference to My Side of the Mountain by Jean Craighead George somewhere in the first ten pages or so? That and Hatchet were my favorite books as a kid. Cool to see it pop up here:D

[vicki]

I neglected to link upthread the introduction (http://www.laurierking.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=10246#post10246) LRK wrote for the discussion. Karen, you might find some interesting things there about what went into the evocative writing of Folly. In particular, I like this image of the Folly bulletin board (http://www.laurierking.com/images/follyboard1.jpg).

John, I saw where y'all were talking about Merton a few days back. That *is* an interesting coincidence! And I can see where "Hammer and a Nail" would bring it to mind also. :)

Tan, that video I linked of KRJ speaking about her experience with mental illness has a lot of chunks from the book. You may find that helpful.

And I noticed something right at the beginning of the reread that I missed the first time through. The reference to My Side of the Mountain by Jean Craighead George somewhere in the first ten pages or so?

I love to read title-dropping in fiction--there's nothing like getting a great book recommendation from a fictional character! And Tan, it sounds like you came as close as anyone here to getting a Folly kind of experience. We should include that place as a stop in our ideal LRK literary tour. :)

as I was reading the bit about Rae tossing her meds into the bay with a plink and a plunk, I was reminded of Robert McCloskey's book, Blueberries for Sal, and the sound the berries made as they hit the bottom of her pail - kerplink, kerplunk.

Okay, that's just too funny. I read Blueberries for Sal over and over to my kids when they were younger. And now I'll never be able to read that med-tossing scene without hearing someone call out "Kerplink, kerplank, kerplunk!" from the bleachers of my mind.

The med-tossing scene really bothered me when I read the book, btw. I kept expecting for her to totally lose it again, although I'm glad she didn't. It doesn't bother me as much as it used to, but I still have mixed feelings about the med-dump. I haven't reread that part yet, so I'll see how it strikes me on this read, after having been away from the book for several years.

[tangential1]

The med-tossing scene really bothered me when I read the book, btw. I kept expecting for her to totally lose it again, although I'm glad she didn't. It doesn't bother me as much as it used to, but I still have mixed feelings about the med-dump. I haven't reread that part yet, so I'll see how it strikes me on this read, after having been away from the book for several years.

I've never really known anyone who's had to take meds for something that isn't entirely physical (pain, blood pressure, infection, etc) so it didn't really occur to me on first reading how dangerous going cold turkey off one's meds might be. Plus, by the time you really find out what triggered the prescription of all the pills, I was thinking she might not have really needed all of them in the first place (trying to avoid major spoilers here, on our third day of discussion, so I'll probably have to revisit this thought later in the month).

[Pat Floyd]

As I began re-reading Folly, I realized that the mysteries and threats and their resolutions were not what I remembered about this book, but Rae Newborn (what an apt name) and her struggles, Sanctuary Island, and the act of building the house. I have a vivid picture in my mind of what it all looked like: Rae's campsite, the dock , the bay, the foundations of the house, Mount Desmond, and the spring.

I compare Rae's experiences with a wonderful month I spent living in a tepee in northeast Pennsylvania near Matamoras in August 1956. I arrived at our campsite in the woods to no building, just saplings cut and ready to be smoothed for the tepee and people ready to help me put it up. Our group, 7 men and 3 women, were learning about small-group camping. We cooked most of our meals out, built another shelter, learned to build fires with flint and steel, explored and learned. I came away convinced that we are meant to live most of our lives outdoors--it gives such a sense of peace and well-being. The second key to that experience, however, was working together with the other people and the companionship we had around the campfire at night. What Rae Newborn did alone would have been incredibly hard, even for a person who had not suffered her traumas and losses.

Another thing that stands out as I re-read is Laurie's ability to write so effectively in other voices, especially Desmond Newborn's journal and Rae's letters to her granddaughter.

[vicki]

Those sound like great experiences, Pat and Sheri! Like Tan's knowledge of the San Juans, I'll bet that adds a lot to your reading of Folly.

I agree that it would be a lot harder to accomplish what Rae did without at least another person or two. Part of what I found fascinating in Folly was the logistics of how Rae got the building materials (lumber, etc) moved and placed where they needed to be with just one set of hands. If it had been me, the delivery guy would have found me decomposing serenely under a pile of 2x4s the first trip or two he made out to the place.

[jtb1951]

Haven't had a chance to read Folly yet. I do have a copy that's in my TBR. After reading "An Unquiet Mind" I have to admit I'm just not in the mood at the moment for a darker story. So instead I'm reading the posts.

Hi, Sheri! I hope you do get a chance to read Folly soon because, imho, it is one of Laurie's finest crafted novels. It does indeed have its dark and disturbing moments, but it is not nearly as unrelentingly grim as Unquiet Mind. As Pat pointed out, Laurie's ability to shift voices so effectively and appropriately among characters is impressive, and her detailed descriptions of the island and the house-building evoke strong mental images of what she portrays. I'm about halfway through my re-reading and I find it even better than I remember (which I already held in high regard!).

John.

[Kerry]

Oh, where to begin with this book? It's at the top of my list of all-time LRK favorites, for many of the reasons that have already been mentioned. I remember wondering how Laurie was going to take a pretty cliched "re-build the house, re-build your life" motif and make it new -- and she delivered in spades. And yes, the writing is brilliant. I want that work table (and the madrone it's attached to) :)

I, too, was bothered a lot by the pill-dump on my first read, and that was before I was diagnosed with depression myself. My sister is a psychiatric nurse, so I've essentially grown up with the knowledge that mental illness isn't necessarily something one cures by force of will alone. I'm certain Laurie didn't intend to send that message, but it's one I received. Yes, Rae suffers panic attacks. But does she ever suffer a deep depression over the course of the book? It's hard for me to believe she wouldn't, especially going cold turkey as she did. I'm not sure what our take-home message from that is supposed to be.

That aside, I find myself enjoying Rae more every time I read this book. I don't know how she'd feel about it, but I'd love to be her friend :)

[Elfin3]

I wasn't sure about her mental illness either (several members of my family are bipolar), but she described the depression part as being post partem and the panic attacks and paranoia being her more common problems (and the paranoia was being provoked a great deal). She was sick and she knew it, but she wasn't nearly as sick or as chronically sick as everyone originally thought.

[Pat Floyd]

After all the things that had happened to her, I have wondered if Rae had some elements of post traumatic stress disorder also.

[The Grey Badger]

I'm not sure Rae was bipolar at all, and will certainly go along with the PTSD diagnosis. Also - is it really paranoia if you actually have an enemy?

I was disturbed by the dumping the meds scene, but when the hard work and solitude started helping her regain clarity of mind, what I thought was that she had been overmedicated in the first place. I have a friend who takes meds for being bipolar plus I'm not sure what all else, and she once complained to me that whenever she complained of side effects or symptoms cropping up on whatever she's taking, her doctor simply prescribed more pills on top of the ones she was already taking. (I urged her to list what she was on and take it to a registered pharmacist at once for a second opinion.)

Also - I have the vague idea that physical labor and a change of setting can be beneficial even when the problem is one correctable by medication. Can anyone here speak to that?

For a portrait of a truly bilpolar person - who is also an untrained and unshielded psychic (though nobody seems to take that into account or mention it directly), I suggest Abigail Padgett's Bo Bradley mysteries. OOP these days I think, but check the used bookstores. There are four of them.

[farmwifetwo]

I have a friend who takes meds for being bipolar plus I'm not sure what all else, and she once complained to me that whenever she complained of side effects or symptoms cropping up on whatever she's taking, her doctor simply prescribed more pills on top of the ones she was already taking. (I urged her to list what she was on and take it to a registered pharmacist at once for a second opinion.)


I second the second opinion for your friend. My eldest son had his symptoms return and the Ped's (old and new one) kept upping his meds. When we went to the child psych he told me to dump them, cold, for 2 to 4 weeks, every 6mths to a year (child) you should do this and we were at 2.5yrs - if we could last that long - b/c it only takes a small amount of medication to do the job correctly. If it's not working, there are other meds out there.

Turns out, the medication was rebounding. Creating the very symptoms we were trying to correct. It had outlived it's usefulness for my son. We have chosen not to remedicate at this time. But are open to the option if it becomes necessary once more.

Sheri

[tangential1]

After all the things that had happened to her, I have wondered if Rae had some elements of post traumatic stress disorder also.

That's what I was thinking too.

And I really can't stand Tamara, I'd just like to say. I've just read through the flashback that Rae has after seeing the footprint on her island, where we find out about the attack that sent her back to the hospital. And Tamara's response is "not again mother!" when she sees all the EMT and sheriff's vehicles outside her mothers house?? WTH? What kind of response is that? Where's the "OMG! What happened?"

And the funny thing is, I feel like she is entirely in character saying something like that. Laurie did an excellent job making me believe that this is the way that woman thinks...and it drives me nuts. I felt so bad for Rae in that flashback.

[Kerry]

I hadn't thought about Rae being overmedicated; that certainly makes it easier to take the pill-dumping episode. But still, I'm left with the impression that she does suffer from a clinical illness with a real physiological basis and manages to "cure" herself through force of will -- which remains disturbing (although now on a much smaller scale) to me.

I originally found Tamara to be pretty despicable, myself. Every time I re-read Folly, though, I feel that I gain a bit more insight into her. Her behavior remains appalling in some of the scenes, but I more readily see the effects of her upbringing and abandonment issues in her behavior. To her credit, she tries to do her best by her daughter and to foster Petra's strong relationship with Rae. That cannot be easy for her, especially after the contrast between her own relationship with her mother and what she saw between Rae and Bella.

I also try to remember that anyone required to care for a family member with chronic health issues is bound to lose patience once in a while. When the problems are as messy as Rae's, and when we live in a society that still often sees mental illness as weakness, Tamara's comment becomes a lot less despicable and a lot more understandable. I don't like it, mind, but I do understand it.

All of which, really, is a testament to the great writing in this book.

[tangential1]

Tamara's comment becomes a lot less despicable and a lot more understandable.

The thing I can't wrap my head around with Tamara's response is the fact that, at that point in the story, the last time Rae would have had a breakdown was like 20 years prior, right (I think she said it was when Tamara was like 5? And that's when she lost all visitation rights and everything.)? And Tamara makes it sound like this happens frequently.

[kasmyra]

I will definitely agree that Rae suffered from depression and most likely PTSD (and who can blame her after losing the 2 main loves of her life). Also, I think most of her paranoia was warranted in the fact that she had been attacked and was hearing noises outside her house at all hours of the night. The way she reacts to Jerry on the beach would not be a far stretch for someone who has been attacked and is consciously aware the perpetrators are still at large. Jerry is a gem in this book as he really is open-minded despite being such a part of the small town community of the islands. He does not berate Rae for her paranoia and even suggests several times that there is no harm in fear if it warranted. He brings up the possibility that the sounds she heard after her attack were in fact man-made and not just a jumbled mind playing tricks and he worries over the fact that the boot tread is relatively fresh near the spring and becomes protective when he is alerted to someone trying to find Rae.
Tamara on the other hand, I want to punch squarely in the face more than once during the reading. She appears very high-strung and despite what is known about her background with Rae her responses though understandable are still horrible. When all the cop cars are at her mother's house she does as Tangential1 points out acts like it is the end of her rope with her mother's mental illness rather than getting the facts first (not saying that the same thought wouldn't have crossed my mind, but I would ask first).
The scene where Rae dumps her meds I found applaudable rather than disconcerting. Maybe it's because I have a psych degree? But I know that meds can cause more problems than they supposedly cure and often times it takes a long time for effective doses to be worked out so the person is who they are without the most negative parts of the disorder. Jamison talks about her struggles and the struggles of others with lithium and even with her training and the training of those around her, the meds were still a scientific guessing game for some time. I find it hard to believe that Rae was "cured" simply by hard work and isolation, but I do believe that she came to realize that she was the only one she could truly rely on. One has to wonder if as time goes along, will Rae need to be medicated somewhat in the future once the house is built and things return to a semblance of normalacy? Possibly.
I didn't want the book to end. The characters even those we only see in flashbacks (Alan, Bella, Desmond, William) are so vivid as to be every bit as "real" as the characters taking part in the action of the story.

[Pat Floyd]

The thing I can't wrap my head around with Tamara's response is the fact that, at that point in the story, the last time Rae would have had a breakdown was like 20 years prior, right (I think she said it was when Tamara was like 5? And that's when she lost all visitation rights and everything.)? And Tamara makes it sound like this happens frequently.

What could be even more deplorable is that the "not again, Mother," might refer to the automobile accident. Rae's most recent suicide attempt took place before Tamara had responsibility for helping her mother. I can understand that Tamara has suffered great hurt from her mother's absence for much of her life and was jealous of Rae's relationship with Bella, something she had never had. But fiction gives me the freedom to say, "I don't like Tamara. Her thinking is so conventional! How could she marry and stay married for so long to a jerk like Don?"

Yet in the end, Tamara saw the light about Don. We have real reconcilation and the promise of a new life together for Tamara, Petra, and Rae. That is one of the great things about Laurie's writing. She paints the reality of loss, evil, and struggle, but she does not neglect the possibilities for redemption and transformation.

[The Grey Badger]

That tells me Tamara's been viewing her mother as crazy for 20 years, probably walking on eggs around her, and interpreting everything she says or does in that light. Which (I can assure you) is crazy-making in itself.

[Pat Floyd]

That tells me Tamara's been viewing her mother as crazy for 20 years, probably walking on eggs around her, and interpreting everything she says or does in that light. Which (I can assure you) is crazy-making in itself.

I think you are absolutely on target.

[Kerry]

I think you are absolutely on target.

Ditto that!

[Pat Floyd]

Jerry is a gem in this book as he really is open-minded. . . . He does not berate Rae for her paranoia and even suggests several times that there is no harm in fear if it is warranted. He brings up the possibility that the sounds she heard after her attack were in fact man-made and not just a jumbled mind playing tricks . . . and becomes protective when he is alerted to someone trying to find Rae.

Jerry did all the right things when he and Nikki first came to the island to visit. He didn't keep Rae guessing but told her what he had observed about her, what he knew about her from others, and how he felt about it. He told something about himself, his cousin with mental illness. Then he made an apt observation: "You of all people should know that just because you sometimes hear things that aren't there, that doesn't mean there's never anything there. I'd guess, in fact, that's one of the reasons you're here, to prove that you can tell the difference. Prove it to yourself, if nothing else" (pp.125-26). He saw purpose--not craziness--in her undertaking.

We need to keep in touch with the realities of our lives and to have people who understand what we're about. For the past couple of months I've stopped taking an anitdepressant prescribed for mild depression. It, together with a prescribed anti-inflamatory, caused gastric problems. During this time I've discovered realities I can deal with or live with: I need to order my life better and to work to improve my health. And sometimes I'm lonely. If I should have a return of real depression, I'll ask for different medication, but I'm liking to focus on problems, not moods.

[The Grey Badger]

I am the last person to be able to be objective about "Folly." First of all, I have always been fascinated by survival skills and do-it-yourself. And have neither the strength nor the aptitude for it for all my trying.

Second, I was misdiagnosed back in the day (the 70s) when what I was dealing with was unrelenting verbal abuse - not just a lot of scolding, but the sort that says "You're not feeling what you're felling, so knock it off," together with the sort of temperament that has meltdowns under such circumstances. (Which is, as always, seen as a character defect, just as inability to recognize people I should know in a crowd is seen as snobbishness, not as a problem I have.)

So Rae's story - oddly enough, it's not personally painful of the sort where I feel everything right along with her. It's almost like an intellectual problem, and one she's solving better than I could.

I simply stopped taking the meds one day, back in the 80s, and felt no differently. Got a new therapist later who told me I wasn't crazy, I was being emotionally abused. Stopped seeing HER after a 1993 solo road trip which let me see that seeing her, like taking the meds earlier, had been doing absolutely nothing for a long, long time.

But living alone and having friends who like me for who I am and don't understand the attitude of Those Others except that they are jerks - and being able to correct my own mistakes without a Greek chorus telling me what I did wrong and what I should do about it and "You ARE...." statements has made all the difference in the world.

[laurierking]

You know, it's been a while since I read FOLLY (and since I'm just a little occupied with THE LANGUAGE OF BEES I'm not going to pick it up just yet) but it seems to me that somewhere in there the point is made that stopping her meds is in fact a suicide attempt. Just because depression sometimes succumbs to physical labor and community support, as in FOLLY, doesn't mean those elements are a sure treatment.

[Pat Floyd]

You know, it's been a while since I read FOLLY (and since I'm just a little occupied with THE LANGUAGE OF BEES I'm not going to pick it up just yet) but it seems to me that somewhere in there the point is made that stopping her meds is in fact a suicide attempt. Just because depression sometimes succumbs to physical labor and community support, as in FOLLY, doesn't mean those elements are a sure treatment.

Granted: physical labor, community support, and solitude as practiced by Rae could be called an anomaly rather than a sure treatment for depression. Somewhere later in FOLLY, Rae may reflect on stopping her meds as a suicide attempt--or maybe a dare: survive without them or else. However, I don't get that reading at the time she throws the pills away. When she is finally alone on the island, the first thing Rae does is reach for her tool belt: "although her first thoughts on the island had been self-destruction, her first act seemed to be one of building" (p.6). She then buries ashes from Alan and Bella, picks up trash, and has a frustrating and painful time preparing a meal. The pills call to her, but she has another plan for them.

Then follows Rae's reflection about Desmond, his building the house, and how she came to want to rebuild it. She goes to examine the foundation and is pleased to find Desmond's door. She returns to the fire pit to wash dishes, and her fears are not so bad. "Maybe the unexpected glimpse of Desmond's own woodwork steadied her. . . . Whatever the reason, she now felt strong enough for the next step" (p.19). She throws the pills away. "Now she possessed nothing more lethal than a hundred aspirin tablets and a bottle of very old Scotch, two things any normal woman might have. Pretend normality was Rae's current credo. . . . Psychiatric Truth declared: You can't hide, you can't ignore. Bullshit. Normal people did, every day" (pp.20-21).

We would not want a single person to be harmed by an idea they got from FOLLY. But the scenario here is one that would be almost impossible to replicate, a story that hangs together for one particular woman. I doubt if mystery writers worry much about readers commiting murder in a way they have described; they don't expect to have a large readership among murderers. However, a lot of readers and people they know are on meds for mental problems, with each person's situation being unique. A novel about a woman like Rae is, therefore, highly relevant for us. Even though it involves higher risks if misread, I believe its power to engender understanding of others and self-understanding far outweighs the risks.

[kasmyra]

Somehow the phrase "It's only paranoia if they really aren't out to get you" keeps running through my head when thinking of Rae. We all have things we fear whether those fears are conscious or in our subconscious. Fear can motivate us as well as immobilize us. Fear is what makes us plan for alternate scenarios. Jerry becomes suspicious of the phone calls searching for Rae's exact whereabouts and tries to protect her without adding unnecessarily to her fear, but when she refuses, he relents knowing that her stubborness has to be given some credence for her to heal.

As for Rae dumping her meds as a form of suicide it is possible. Even if she didn't OD on them she still had the gun, the bottle of scotch and any number of ways to injure herself while working on the house. As she pointed out she tried to commit suicide in the psych ward so that in some ways shows that if one is serious about wanting out of this world they will find a way to do so. I think Rae having Desmond's diary and knowing that he experienced some of the same emotions she did and built Folly despite that gave her more courage and fight to live than any amount of drugs or therapy could have.

[Pat Floyd]

I think Rae having Desmond's diary and knowing that he experienced some of the same emotions she did and built Folly despite that gave her more courage and fight to live than any amount of drugs or therapy could have.

An excellent point! Especially since she had already been in therapy a very long time before she took this step.

[tangential1]

somewhere in there the point is made that stopping her meds is in fact a suicide attempt. Just because depression sometimes succumbs to physical labor and community support, as in FOLLY, doesn't mean those elements are a sure treatment.

Kind of like a trial by fire; a gauntlet. She'll either come out better (in the sense that she has more control over herself and her mind), or not come out at all.

Given that her condition is clinical, I suppose the gauntlet she's set herself could be thought of as entirely futile (as Rae admits at some point) and thus suicidal. Like trying to will away a physical disease. But at the same time, just because something isn't a sure treatment doesn't mean it's entirely pointless to try, right?

And I've never really seen a trial like that as a suicide. It's generally a test of courage and strength, right? You either master your fears/weaknesses or are consumed by them. I suppose if one went into such a trial with absolutely no hope in coming out again it could be a suicide attempt, but Rae seems to embrace the possibility that she'll be able to make it through. Despite her admitted second thoughts on the advisability of her plan and the fact that she is overcome by her fears at times and contemplates killing herself (the gun, the sharp spearhead in the mortar, etc.) she still has hope that she'll make it through. Hope that is buoyed by Petra and her newly found community.

So I suppose what I'm thinking is that if we were talking about reality, Rae's throwing her meds could definitely be a suicide attempt, but given that it's fiction I prefer to lean toward a more positive theme.

</Ramble>

[KarenB]

This weekend's NY Times Magazine cover article is about children with bi-polar disorder. (Not to mention chapter 2 of Laura Lippman's story). It presents a very different picture from either Kay Jamieson or Rae's stories, but still quite fascinating.

[tangential1]

Thought I'd bring our discussion thread back up to the fore;)

I just read through the part of the book where Jerry Carmichael is giving Rae a ride back to her island and he stops the boat abruptly for a passing orca. It completely threw me back to a fishing trip in the San Juans I took a few years back with my cousin. We were out pulling shrimp pots and saw a whole bunch of whale watching boats when we came around the point of one island and so cut the engine. And a few moments later a fin surfaced just to port and sank again heading under our tiny 4-man boat. It was scary and amazing at the same time. I can fully empathize with Rae's description of her encounter. I love that about this book:)

And I'm wondering: Laurie, did you write that scene from experience?

[The Grey Badger]

One thing I'd like to know - Rae's shrink doesn't know PTSD when she sees it?

Also, where did "Bipolar" come from? She said outright it was plain old black-dog depression. And when you cycle like a bipolar but your 'manic' peak just brings to back to normal, I think they call that something else.

Just my $0.02

[laurierking]

Thought I'd bring our discussion thread back up to the fore;)

I just read through the part of the book where Jerry Carmichael is giving Rae a ride back to her island and he stops the boat abruptly for a passing orca. It completely threw me back to a fishing trip in the San Juans I took a few years back with my cousin. We were out pulling shrimp pots and saw a whole bunch of whale watching boats when we came around the point of one island and so cut the engine. And a few moments later a fin surfaced just to port and sank again heading under our tiny 4-man boat. It was scary and amazing at the same time. I can fully empathize with Rae's description of her encounter. I love that about this book:)

And I'm wondering: Laurie, did you write that scene from experience?


Yep. My daughter and I were in the islands researching the book and took an orca-watching ride, fortunately not one of those that follows along on the creatures' tails but one that stays at a distance. Only this time a big, really big male decided he wanted to be on the other side of us, so the boat's engine cut out while the fin came closer and closer and then--whoosh, a dark train engine passed under our feet.

[Pat Floyd]

I was misdiagnosed back in the day (the 70s) when what I was dealing with was unrelenting verbal abuse - not just a lot of scolding, but the sort that says "You're not feeling what you're feeling, so knock it off," together with the sort of temperament that has meltdowns under such circumstances. (Which is, as always, seen as a character defect,) . . . .

But living alone and having friends who like me for who I am and don't understand the attitude of Those Others except that they are jerks - and being able to correct my own mistakes without a Greek chorus telling me what I did wrong and what I should do about it and "You ARE...." statements has made all the difference in the world.

I'm glad you've gotten away from those voices. To be told that what you feel or what you've experienced is not what you know it to be is extremely disorienting and destructive. It's happened to me only a few times. These were situations in which I had little emotional investment and with people who had no power to threaten me, yet I still felt something like vertigo: You weren't there. You don't know the people or the situation, and still you tell me I don't understand, that I'm in denial?. Psychological jargon adds insult.

On Sanctuary Island, I think Rae was getting away from a cacophony of voices telling her things about herself. She set out to deal with simple, but difficult, realities and to do something very concrete and constructive, a project where each step would be immediately visible. She was able to deal with her own inner struggles in her own way without the judgment of others--except where she had internalized that judgment.

I think we are mistaken to think of Rae as bi-polar. AN UNQUIET MIND gave an example of someone dealing with mental illness, not necessarily just like Rae's.

[". . . just as inability to recognize people I should know in a crowd is seen as snobbishness, not as a problem I have." Do you have a mild form of prosopagnosia? We make such a mistake in judging and jumping to conclusions about people.]

[The Grey Badger]

Yes. I do. I tend to recognize people by "the one with the pink hair" or "the only east Indian in the class" etc. I used to be extremely surprised when people recognized me after several changes of hairdo, clothing style, and change of weight - how in the world did they ever know it was me?

It also gives me trouble following TV shows and movies unless the differences between the characters is very clearly marked. (i.e. Sookie Stackhouse is a delicate blonde. Arlene is a flaming fake redhead. Maudette Pickens was a brunette. Tara's black.) That used to make me feel SO stupid!

[Pat Floyd]

We start out in life assuming that everyone perceives the same things we do, but it's just not so. My best friend has synesthesia. In his form of it all movement and some other things have sounds and a degree of color. (He says cats make beautiful sounds when they move.) He hadn't realize that everyone's perceptions weren't like his until he got a job at the post office during graduate school. They were given two weeks to memorize the streets on their delivery routes, but he knew his in two days. When asked how he did it, he said he just remembered the musical tones they made. Nobody knew what he was talking about.

Two other friends can't follow a map and have great difficulty getting lost when they drive. One has a Ph.D. degree and the other can take a disassembled thing and see almost at once how it goes together. The problem is a glitch in the mind not related to intelligence as we usually define it, just as your difficulty with faces isn't stupid.

[KarenB]

The problem is a glitch in the mind not related to intelligence as we usually define it, just as your difficulty with faces isn't stupid. It is also that our usual definition for intelligence is much too limited. Intelligence should more broadly cover mechanical ability, spatial relations, emotional understanding, and so on. We all have some degree of the various intelligences as well as degrees of learning disability. I do not wish to diminish those with diagnosed disabilities, just make the point that none of us are without flaw.

[Pat Floyd]

It is also that our usual definition for intelligence is much too limited. Intelligence should more broadly cover mechanical ability, spatial relations, emotional understanding, and so on. We all have some degree of the various intelligences as well as degrees of learning disability. I do not wish to diminish those with diagnosed disabilities, just make the point that none of us are without flaw.

How very true! I have a niece who from the time she was four or five had a gift for emotional understanding. As a 3rd or 4th grader, she would say, "My teacher is having problems, she needs a little present" or sometimes a note. At a new school in 8th grade a friend from her former school went from good grades to failing marks. Kym went to the principal and said, transfer her to my classes and I'll straighten her out. He did, and she did. Along with sympathetic understanding, she has the ability to get people to do things. By the time she was five she could manage her three older brothers. I had never seen this gift before so clearly innate.

[vicki]

Am done with my reread, after many interruptions and despite my glacial reading speed--I definitely would have gone faster if I'd read it as an audiobook (a form I am fast falling in gaga love with -- thanks to Bachi for the enabling :)). Maybe I'll try that next month. :)

I somehow remembered Folly as being much darker than it has seemed on a second read (maybe because I know what's coming?). For all of the panic attacks, PTSD, depression, breakdowns, etc, it's also positive, healing, and (no pun intended) constructive on many levels. As someone who can't so much as hammer a nail, it isamazing to vicariously experience the tactile pleasure in building and creating with one's own hands, as well as the satisfaction of laying psychological anchor in the vision and process of a construction project.

Rae does come out and say (as she's getting serious with Alan) that she has unipolar depression. There may have been some confusion about that as we moved from last month's discussion on Kay Redfield Jamison's memoir of biploar disorder to Folly. Rae doesn't get the manic upswings, but she does have the depressive phases associated with bipolar disorder, and--at times--the bouts of psychosis that can emerge in both uni- and bi-polar disorder.

The med-dump didn't bother me as much this time around, perhaps because I knew it wouldn't result in disaster. She's obviously planned for it, likely cutting her dosage in anticipation of going cold turkey (withdrawal symptoms can be a nightmare--BTDT), and she alerted her psych. about it, promising to be on the alert for difficulties. And I saw it less as suicidal than as a subconscious decision that her art must be in the circle she's staked out to make a stand at the edge of the world--recall thatthe medicine takes her creative powers from her (note: this is not a commonly noted side-effect, insofar as I'm aware). She says that if she can't make it at Folly, she can't make it anywhere. And part of her knows, I think, that to really "make it," she needs to excercise her powers of artistic creation.

(A topic for another discussion might be on the loss of artistic ability, a subject I've thought about ever since reading Mark Salzman's Lying Awake (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A07E7D71F3BF932A15752C1A9669C8B 63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all)).

[vicki]

I'm embarrassed to say that I'd never even heard of a madrone tree before reading Folly. In fact, I looked up an image during this read, and found this beautiful tree (http://www.talesfromurbanforests.org/photos/11/madrone.JPG). Pretty cool.

I loved Rae's and Vivian's game of figuring out what tree a person would be. I think I'd be a silver-leaf maple because it's a messy laughing* tree that thrives in hot weather. :D What tree would you be?

*The silver-backed leaves turning back and forth in the wind always make me think the tree is chuckling

[vicki]

And speaking of artistic creation, look at this beautiful work (http://www.heatherneill.com/imageViewer.php?id=50) that one of our VBCers, a professional artist and LRK audiobook fan, named in honor of Folly. LRK wanted to share that in the discussion. Isn't it a lovely painting?! The artist says:

A few years back, when reading Folly for the first time, I borrowed the title for the painting I was working on at the time. It hangs behind my easel now, a muse of sorts. If you're interested you can see it here

http://www.heatherneill.com/imageViewer.php?id=50

there's a link at the bottom left ( a quill pen in a teacup ) that will take you to the painter's notes...something I write for each painting...to let you know I was listening.


Wonderful stuff. As someone who can barely draw stick figures, I'm really in awe of people who can paint and draw at such a level.

[kasmyra]

Thanks for the link to the tree and the painting. The tree is not as I had pictured it, but then again I had not thought to "google" it because the look of the tree was negligible in my mind for understanding and appreciation of the story. The painting is also not what I exactly expected, but is beautiful nonetheless. I have a cousin who lives in TX and does all kinds of still lifes, animals and people drawings and it is amazing the amount of detail she can incorporate in a pencil or pastel drawing. I have the eye for appreciation and that is all I am afraid! LOL!

[tangential1]

Wow! That's a really cool painting!

I finished my reread of Folly yesterday. For some reason I remembered the encounter with her intruder at the end taking a lot longer. But maybe it was because I was waiting for it this time around and last time it came as a major suprise. That whole time warp thing where minutes seem to take longer when you're holding your breath maybe?

This book really puts me in the mood to do some kind of wood working project or something. I have absolutely no experience in wood working, but I feel like I want to build something now.

[Bachi]

I have finally finished my re-read of Folly – it took forever because my sister is here visiting and I tried to get her interested, but she has to much going on right now, so I finally gave up and finished it myself.
First let me say, as always, there’s been some fascinating discussions so far this month.
Comments on earlier posts:
…. I came away convinced that we are meant to live most of our lives outdoors--it gives such a sense of peace and well-being.
I agree, but through personal experience I have found that being born and raised in the USA, we are spoiled to the point of making such an existence extremely challenging. Just moving from NJ to MT was harder than I would have imagined. Maybe I’m just letting myself get to old.
… What Rae Newborn did alone would have been incredibly hard, even for a person who had not suffered her traumas and losses.
This point was my only real difficulty with Folly, I had a hard time believing she could do it, or that it could be done period.
Tepee's cheating :) When we were in Guides I went to Wilderness camp. For a week we slept in shelters we built in the woods. We put all 6 of us in ours. Pine bows and branches strung btwn 4 trees.
Wow! :eek:
Haven't had a chance to read Folly yet. I do have a copy that's in my TBR. After reading "An Unquiet Mind" I have to admit I'm just not in the mood at the moment for a darker story. So instead I'm reading the posts.Sheri
Sheri,
Don’t let “An Unquiet Mind” put you off Folly, there really is no comparison, last months read was just to give a mental illness background. Rae Newborn is a character I really think you will enjoy! :)

Much has been said about Rae’s condition and her ‘dumping’ her medication.
She indicated she was diagnosed with ‘Clinical Depression’ and at another point she indicated a uni?-polar not bipolar condition - in addition, as many of you have indicated, it seems to be combined with post traumatic stress and what appears to be panic attacks. I know lithium was mentioned as one of the medications she had been on, but it was not among the ones she dumped. I can only say when one is determined to overcome something, an inner strength will often come to the rescue and could make stopping medication cold possible, even if not recommended. (Not talking about Lithium here).
Frequently people are over medicated, they may initially need the doses given to get along for a bit, but the continuation of such high doses, is often maintained when no longer necessary.

IMHO, Tamara’s behavior is very much in character with someone who has abandonment issues combined with her latter experiences of dealing with her mother’s illness.

You know, it's been a while since I read FOLLY (and since I'm just a little occupied with THE LANGUAGE OF BEES I'm not going to pick it up just yet) but it seems to me that somewhere in there the point is made that stopping her meds is in fact a suicide attempt. Just because depression sometimes succumbs to physical labor and community support, as in FOLLY, doesn't mean those elements are a sure treatment.
Now this is interesting, coming from the author. I took it more to be a “do or die” choice and was very pleased that the result was DO, not die.

Jerry and Nikki and the rest of the building gang. These kind of caring and giving people are very, very rare these days, I remember people being more like this when I was very young.

… thanks to Bachi for the enabling :))[/QUOTE}

Anytime!

[QUOTE=vicki;10774]…I somehow remembered Folly as being much darker than it has seemed on a second read (maybe because I know what's coming?)…

I didn’t remember it as dark, but very tense and intense the 1st go around, not know what was coming next!

I'm embarrassed to say that I'd never even heard of a madrone tree before reading Folly. Me neither, thanks for the pic and the nest on the shore by Heather is marvelous as is the rest of her work.

I loved Rae's and Vivian's game of figuring out what tree a person would be.

Me too!

I think I'd be a silver-leaf maple because it's a messy laughing* tree that thrives in hot weather. :D
great imagery Vicki!

What tree would you be?

Not sure, but that thick multi-trunked Madrone is a possibility.

…That whole time warp thing where minutes seem to take longer when you're holding your breath maybe?

Very true!

This book really puts me in the mood to do some kind of wood working project or something. I have absolutely no experience in wood working, but I feel like I want to build something now.

Couldn’t have said it better!

[Meredith47]

Here we are at the end of the month and I confess I wish the month had two more weeks in it. A couple of books in which I have a few ideas gained from real life and no durn time. o, well. I had some reactions as a person in the mental health biz: Rae certainly seemed to have a whole set of problems, including a whopping clinical depression that recurred, definitely PTSD and definitely panic attacks. When she got depressed she apparently hallucinated and was afraid of things/people which weren't really happening. (or...were they attacks??) My experience working with depression is that it's not commonplace to get psychotically depressed like that over and over. But this book is about one person, and human variation is infinite, so it's certainly possible. And indeed if her clinicians did not recognize the PTSD, they needed to have their heads examined! Psychologists are at times lame (alas) so I hasten to mention a bit of behavior I feel good about: the research folks have been studying All Kinds of Intelligence for a while, including the mechanical aptitude, proprioceptive (think showing dancer a step once & they've got it), "emotional intelligence" (some of which can be taught) and other cool stuff. Halle freaking lujah. There are a lot of ways to be successful in this world. Also: years ago I had a creative client who was worried she couldn't create on meds. She could. Sigh, but you'd have to see, as there's that human variation thing.
I just love this book. I do wish it were longer. I entirely concur with Vicki and tangential that on first read it was So Intense it seemed dark. It really isn't. (take heart if you haven't read it yet!) I liked Rae so much that I had to read most of it, put it down and then read the end and then the middle. I was that worried something terrible might happen to her. (think I take my fiction seriously?). I probably could muster some compassion for Tamara. maybe. But mostly I wanted to hit her upside the head.
And the people who like us and love us for who we are? better than any jewels in Paradise. best to all//Meredith

[Shaybo]

I'm almost done with my reread of Folly and I have to agree with Vicki the story isn't as dark as it was when I first read it. I do love the way LRK delves into her character's psychie it makes them seem more human more real to me.