Quick survey: What are you reading today?

[SCWillson]

And if you Churchill fans have not read his autobiography of his early life -- My Early Life: A Roving Commission -- you have a treat waiting for you. He was a terrific writer!Yes, Churchill and Teddy Roosevelt (another personal hero) were probably the two best writer/politicians of the 20th century. Both were excellent writers. I can't think of anyone else who even comes close.

[Pat Floyd]

While looking for something else in the library, I came across The 101 Most Influential People Who Never Lived, by Alton Lazar, Dan Karlan, & Jeremy Salter (2006). The subhead is "how characters of fiction, myth, legends, television, and movies have shaped our society, changed our behavior, and set the course of history." I found it fascinating. Sherlock Holmes is #8. A great deal of it is very serious, but some is really funny. For instance, take Icarus #80:

"Icarus is important for several reasons. He is a prime example of the conquences of not following instructions. And although he was first in flight and the inspiration for the Wright brothers, he was foolish enough to exceed the manufacturer's specific limitations for altitude, and thus his wings failed. What was even worse, he had neglected to purchase flight insurance."

[Strawberry Curls]

The subhead is "how characters of fiction, myth, legends, television, and movies have shaped our society, changed our behavior, and set the course of history." I found it fascinating. Sherlock Holmes is #8. A great deal of it is very serious, but some is really funny. For instance, take Icarus #80:

"Icarus is important for several reasons. He is a prime example of the conquences of not following instructions. And although he was first in flight and the inspiration for the Wright brothers, he was foolish enough to exceed the manufacturer's specific limitations for altitude, and thus his wings failed. What was even worse, he had neglected to purchase flight insurance."That is a hoot, Pat. What did they say about Sherlock Holmes?

[Pat Floyd]

That is a hoot, Pat. What did they say about Sherlock Holmes?

Holmes is given two-and-a-half pages of serious treatment:

"The ultimate intellectual detective, he is a man of impeccable logic who solves mysteries for the police by his powers of careful observation of details, keeping a logical approach to the crime, and following every lead. . . . He practically invented the forensic crime laboratory and . . . was the wave of the future, our era."

They go on to cite Conan Doyle's acknowledged debt to the methods of his medical school teacher, Dr. Joseph Bell, then outline the host of literature, film, and TV offerings Holmes has spawned. They conclude:

"Sherlock Holmes set the standard for noticing important yet seemingly trivial particulars in incidental features. And he established a standard of logic that is valid for all of us in living our lives. Every detective, imaginary or real, is measured by the benchmark of Holmes."

[Strawberry Curls]

Wow, that is great, and thanks for posting so much, Pat. I really appreciate it.

[Jennifer]

The cool thing is that even though I had never even heard of Winston Churchill when my mom bought me that book by the time I was halfway finished with it I was hooked. Churchill's life seemed almost like an adventure story itself: Fighting dervishes at the Battle of Omdurman, escaping from a Boer POW camp, a newspaper correspondent at the Battle of San Juan Hill (at one point in his life Churchill was the highest paid journalist in the world), fighting in the trenches during World War One, First Lord of the Admiralty, etc.

I'd love to find another copy of that book. Thanks Mom!
I guess she knew a good adventure story when she heard one! My son had to do his first "term" paper on a famous person and was assigned WSC. I think the capture during the Boer War and his ability to formulate a plan of escape captured my son's attention. He loved how WSC didn't give up. I think of things that happen to us as young people and how we handle them. Sometimes it seems that one big thing can set the tone for our lives. From then on, he was a hero, someone who could think on his feet and would never give up.
Jennifer

[annie]

I have just been reading Phil Rickman's "To Dream of the Dead" #11 in the series). Like some of our VBC picks, it features religion: Merrily Watkins is a widow & CofE vicar in Herefordshire: deepest rural England. Her daughter Jane is a gentle pagan, and many of the parishioners have a connection to the "mystic landscape". However, the local police inject a good bit of realism as well, making it a very believable series.
The plots are good and the characters deeply interesting. There is are on-going developments, but you can pick those up if you read out-of-order, though I'd suggest that you begin with #1 Wine of Angels (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/r/phil-rickman/wine-of-angels.htm) (a reference to the local cider) which sets up the characters & introduces the area.

[Pat Floyd]

This is a very minor point, but what I'm reading brought to mind the fact that many police-centered novels, especially those set in London, mention in passing that the police fear an outcry in the press about their failure to solve the murder quickly. Does this kind of thing, in fact, actually happen? Is it more likely in London?

When I lived in the New York area, I didn't read the tabloids--this kind of outcry might have appeared there--but I doubt that anyone with power in running the city gave these papers much credence. Locally, I can remember only one case of media questioning the way a case was handled. In 1975 nine-year-old Marcia Tremble disappeared while delivering Girl Scout cookies in her very nice neighborhood. Over a month later she was found murdered and raped about 150 yards from her home. In 2007 her killer was tried and convicted. In retrospect one still questions why her body wasn't found sooner. The police theory that the crime was committed by juveniles may have delayed finding the actual killer, and although two accused young men were cleared, no public announcement was made of the fact. The court system was at fault in letting the actual killer go the first time he raped a woman. He is the likely perpetrator of a number of other assaults and a murder in this area. Nationally, the murder of JonBenet Ramsey evoked great comment and criticism.

[annie]

I think it would be fair to say that the press can be ferocious - they can be horrible to people & agencies, often unfairly; and they also ferret out injustice & malpractice.
I though the US press were similar - but maybe I'm over-influenced by All the Presidents' Men.

[Pat Floyd]

I think it would be fair to say that the press can be ferocious - they can be horrible to people & agencies, often unfairly; and they also ferret out injustice & malpractice.
I though the US press were similar - but maybe I'm over-influenced by All the Presidents' Men.

I just haven't seen our press target police performance in regard to specific crimes. Police brutality or dishonesty is a more likely subject. My guess would be that in the U.S. a ferocious press is found mainly in Washington and New York with politicians being a major focus, but with other targets as well. Also, smaller newspapers and local TV have less resources for investigative reporting. I like the game of baseball, and I'm now remembering an excellent player who went to one of the New York teams and didn't perform well. The observation was made that some men can't play in New York. It takes a thick skin to withstand the pressure of the New York press and fans.

[KarenB]

Many, if not most, of the newspapers in the US are owned by corporations, which may own several if not many newspapers. Therefore, the slant of the journalism is colored by the corporation owning the paper. Also, the readership of newspapers in the US is diminishing, causing many papers to cut back on their own staff and rely more on syndicated news. I don't have references for this, and an extremely brief Google search didn't net particularly good references, but I do believe I have read about this in several different places.

[Jennifer]

My bro just finished a journalism degree and the big papers have been compromised and are in financial trouble as well. He's so interested in local small papers because he believes that's where there is still an opportunity to be a journalist.
Jennifer

[Jennifer]

Off on another M'a Ramotswe adventure. What does it say about me that the only series written by the prolific Scottish (and presumably impeccably Caucasian) author Alexander McCall Smith that I like is about a short, traditionally-built Botswanan female private detective? I must be violating all sorts of anti-colonial sensibilities...
Jennifer

[Pat Floyd]

Off on another M'a Ramotswe adventure. What does it say about me that the only series written by the prolific Scottish (and presumably impeccably Caucasian) author Alexander McCall Smith that I like is about a short, traditionally-built Botswanan female private detective? I must be violating all sorts of anti-colonial sensibilities...
Jennifer

Jennifer, I think you're just showing discriminating taste. IMO The No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency books are gems unlike any other writing I know. I relish each of them for their finely drawn and predictable characters, gentle humor, appreciative sense of place, friendly atmosphere, and the certainty that nothing dramatic is ever going to happen.

I have laughed with the three Portuguese Irrregular Verbs entertainments (as they're called) about German professor Dr. von Igelfeld, the quirks of academia, and the pitfalls of pomposity.

I have a very mild interest in The Sunday Philosophy Club people and none at all in the other books.

[Jennifer]

I have laughed with the three Portuguese Irrregular Verbs entertainments (as they're called) about German professor Dr. von Igelfeld, the quirks of academia, and the pitfalls of pomposity.

I have a very mild interest in The Sunday Philosophy Club people and none at all in the other books.

I think you've summed it up Pat. I just marvel at the way he has so much feeling for these people, whom by all rights, he shouldn't have such a deep and compassionate connection. His own Scottish characters while not all are maddening, they just pale by comparison. He makes me want to live in Gabarone, to find the kind of people he writes about. I know, I know, not all is well in Botswana but there still seem to be people there who aren't spinning off their own axes (if I may borrow a somewhat obscure reference from Gaudy Night).
Jennifer

[Pat Floyd]

My sister went on an adventure travel trip to National Parks in Botswanna a couple of years ago, and the people she met sound like some of Maa Ramotswe's friends.

[Jennifer]

My sister went on an adventure travel trip to National Parks in Botswanna a couple of years ago, and the people she met sound like some of Maa Ramotswe's friends.
I have dear friends in Botswana doing medical missions and raising a little one. They are no where near a city from what I recall. Seems to be a very interesting country with a great sense of national pride.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Starting The English Bible and the Seventeenth-Century Revolution by Christopher Hill.

[Jennifer]

Starting The English Bible and the Seventeenth-Century Revolution by Christopher Hill.
Steve,
My lectures on Churchill were a bit stilted, hampered by a quirky reader so I am now looking for a full on bio and you need to tell me what you think is the way to go (I won't ever question you if you decide to charge for your services...)
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Steve,
My lectures on Churchill were a bit stilted, hampered by a quirky reader so I am now looking for a full on bio and you need to tell me what you think is the way to go (I won't ever question you if you decide to charge for your services...)Jenn, I would start with William Manchester's brilliant The Last Lion: Visions of Glory, 1874-1932 and follow it up with Alone 1932-1940. The first volume IMO is one of the best biographies ever written. It covers from his birth until 1932 and is a book I have read at least a half-dozen times. The second volume covers 1932 until 1940 when was a virtual political pariah warning about the coming Nazi threat and is an unexpectedly fascinating period in WSC's life.

These two books (the first two of a planned trilogy which sadly will probably never be completed as Manchester now has Alzheimer's) cover Churchill's life until he became Prime Minister in 1940.

There are a number of good books on his war years but in many ways his life was most interesting in those earlier years.

[Elizabeth Chase]

Jenn, I would start with William Manchester's brilliant The Last Lion: Visions of Glory, 1874-1932 and follow it up with Alone 1932-1940. The first volume IMO is one of the best biographies ever written. It covers from his birth until 1932 and is a book I have read at least a half-dozen times. The second volume covers 1932 until 1940 when was a virtual political pariah warning about the coming Nazi threat and is an unexpectedly fascinating period in WSC's life.

These two books (the first two of a planned trilogy which sadly will probably never be completed as Manchester now has Alzheimer's) cover Churchill's life until he became Prime Minister in 1940.

There are a number of good books on his war years but in many ways his life was most interesting in those earlier years.

Mr. Manchester passed away in 2004.

I just finished reading his The Glory and the Dream, a narrative history of the US from 1932-1974. It's quite a tome but an enjoyable read. It was written too early to cover Nixon's near impeachment and resignation, but I'll just say the man was in deep sh*t by the end of the book.

I have the two Churchill volumes, which I'll get around to reading one of these . . . years!

[SCWillson]

Mr. Manchester passed away in 2004.I am indeed sorry to hear that. I suppose I'm not surprised. :(

[Jennifer]

Mr. Manchester passed away in 2004.

I just finished reading his The Glory and the Dream, a narrative history of the US from 1932-1974. It's quite a tome but an enjoyable read. It was written too early to cover Nixon's near impeachment and resignation, but I'll just say the man was in deep sh*t by the end of the book.

I have the two Churchill volumes, which I'll get around to reading one of these . . . years!
If it goes through Aug. of 1974, it should cover all the bases. That's when Nixon resigned, if memory serves....
Jennifer
Looked it up, Aug. 9, 1974...

[Jennifer]

These two books (the first two of a planned trilogy which sadly will probably never be completed as Manchester now has Alzheimer's) cover Churchill's life until he became Prime Minister in 1940.

Steve,
In a curious mood, I searched on William Manchester's name and came up with this bit of information on the third volume.

http://richardlangworth.com/the-last-lion-volume-iii

Apparently a friend of William Manchester's (Paul Reid was the name) has completed his third volume and it will be published shortly....
Jennifer

[Elizabeth Chase]

If it goes through Aug. of 1974, it should cover all the bases. That's when Nixon resigned, if memory serves....
Jennifer
Looked it up, Aug. 9, 1974...

Of course, I made a mistake -- it's 1932 to 1972; the book was published in 1974.


In a curious mood, I searched on William Manchester's name and came up with this bit of information on the third volume.

http://richardlangworth.com/the-last-lion-volume-iii

Apparently a friend of William Manchester's (Paul Reid was the name) has completed his third volume and it will be published shortly....
Jennifer

I'm glad you found that link; my investigation took a wrong turn to a different Paul Reid on Amazon who's not Manchester's Reid.

[Jennifer]

That's too bad that the book ends before then 1974! I suppose there was a plan for another volume. I am having such trouble with our local library's new on-line system. I am having a very hard time finding Manchester's books on audio. I know they exist but finding them in the new system is like searching for a particular grain of sand on the beach. I keep getting different results! This was not progress.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Steve,
In a curious mood, I searched on William Manchester's name and came up with this bit of information on the third volume.

http://richardlangworth.com/the-last-lion-volume-iii

Apparently a friend of William Manchester's (Paul Reid was the name) has completed his third volume and it will be published shortly....
JenniferBless you, Jenn! I'd all but given up hope I'd ever see Volume III of The Last Lion. Now it looks like it's on track for publication in 2012. Even better, Manchester appears to have selected the author and had a great deal of input on its writing. (Few historians write as well as William Manchester. I'm convinced he could make a book about paint peeling interesting.) :)

[Jennifer]

Bless you, Jenn! I'd all but given up hope I'd ever see Volume III of The Last Lion. Now it looks like it's on track for publication in 2012. Even better, Manchester appears to have selected the author and had a great deal of input on its writing. (Few historians write as well as William Manchester. I'm convinced he could make a book about paint peeling interesting.) :)
Too bad we don't have a "like" button, 'cause I like being "blessed!" Now if my stupid library hadn't changed its search engine, I might be able to find it in audio format! >:((My kids tell me that's an angry face sign...)
Jennifer

[pontalba]

Bless you, Jenn! I'd all but given up hope I'd ever see Volume III of The Last Lion. Now it looks like it's on track for publication in 2012. Even better, Manchester appears to have selected the author and had a great deal of input on its writing. (Few historians write as well as William Manchester. I'm convinced he could make a book about paint peeling interesting.) :)

I have to thank you for mentioning both the Churchill books and The Glory and the Dream...the latter arrived today, (courtesy of Amazon Marketplace). I happened to open up to page 402...describing the clash between Truman and Lewis. Phew!

But I'm actually reading Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe at present. Kempe is most readable.

[SCWillson]

Starting another Christopher Hill book on early-Enlightenment England: Milton and the English Revolution.

[Jennifer]

Steve,
I have been reading and listening to some interesting history from a prof who's expertise is in the Crusades but he's also written some very interesting stuff about the late Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire. His name is Thomas Madden and I have appreciated his take on events. I was very surprised to learn that at no time during the Byzantine Empire was it ever referred to as "the Byzantine Empire!" Apparently those Enlightenment historians took great pleasure in naming things and as Madden put it, "dividing history in to chunks." He's been refreshing to read, to hear more about how a person of the time thought of his world. I think he's written about the Reformation too. I bet that's a treat as well.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Steve,
I have been reading and listening to some interesting history from a prof who's expertise is in the Crusades but he's also written some very interesting stuff about the late Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire. His name is Thomas Madden and I have appreciated his take on events. I was very surprised to learn that at no time during the Byzantine Empire was it ever referred to as "the Byzantine Empire!" Apparently those Enlightenment historians took great pleasure in naming things and as Madden put it, "dividing history in to chunks." He's been refreshing to read, to hear more about how a person of the time thought of his world. I think he's written about the Reformation too. I bet that's a treat as well.
JenniferI'm pretty sure the "Byzantines " called themselves the (Easter) Roman Empire. IIRC the "Middle Ages" got the name during the Enlightenment as well. :)

[Jennifer]

I'm pretty sure the "Byzantines " called themselves the (Easter) Roman Empire. IIRC the "Middle Ages" got the name during the Enlightenment as well. :)
Bulls eye! Yes! Madden says that at that time, the "Empire" was the known world and when Rome fell to the various Germanic tribes and all, that the "Byzantines" never saw themselves as a separate group, but that that part of the Empire was just not within their control any longer. I know there are reasons for how history is viewed, how it is written but I am beginning to think the Enlightenment thinkers and historians might have been a little too management-oriented. History is so messy. I want to know what the people of the time thought of themselves, not just what we "really smart and much more modern" people think of it.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Bulls eye! Yes! Madden says that at that time, the "Empire" was the known world and when Rome fell to the various Germanic tribes and all, that the "Byzantines" never saw themselves as a separate group, but that that part of the Empire was just not within their control any longer. I know there are reasons for how history is viewed, how it is written but I am beginning to think the Enlightenment thinkers and historians might have been a little too management-oriented. History is so messy. I want to know what the people of the time thought of themselves, not just what we "really smart and much more modern" people think of it.That's always been part of my fascination with history. People are the same; how they think and act is what changes.

Nothing I have ever read has led me to believe human are any smarter now than we were 20,000 years ago. We just know a lot more; and that advantage is largely offset by the fact there is so much more to know. Any net improvement has been quite small.

[Jennifer]

That's always been part of my fascination with history. People are the same; how they think and act is what changes.

Nothing I have ever read has led me to believe human are any smarter now than we were 20,000 years ago. We just know a lot more; and that advantage is largely offset by the fact there is so much more to know. Any net improvement has been quite small.

Hey again,
Madden goes on to explain, and I guess I can see their point, that Enlightenment historians saw the the Byzantine Empire was different in material ways, important ways from the Roman Empire so they wanted that demarcation. But I like that Madden wants you to know that the people themselves didn't see themselves as different. Each has its point. That's I guess, another important distinction, that historians are definitely trying to be rational, it's just the definition of rational does change. Have you ever studied the history of how the Middle East became the "Middle East?" It's the most convoluted and crazy thing and makes no sense to me yet, it's the MIDDLE EAST!
Jennifer

[Pat Floyd]

That's always been part of my fascination with history. People are the same; how they think and act is what changes.

Nothing I have ever read has led me to believe human are any smarter now than we were 20,000 years ago. We just know a lot more; and that advantage is largely offset by the fact there is so much more to know. Any net improvement has been quite small.

Your statements make me think of an observation by Robert Benchley, "We are constantly being surprised that people did things well before we were born."

[SCWillson]

As part of my ongoing study of the Nazis and how a civilized nation like Germany could commit some of the most evil acts in human history, last night I started *Popular Opinion & Political Dessent in the Third Reich: Bavaria 1933-1945 by Ian Kershaw.

I have read quite a few books about the Nazis and how they came to power and what they did once they came to power; now I am increasingly turning to how people lived under the regime, how many resisted (or at least forbore) living under the Nazi authority in both Germany and conquered lands, and the more despicable activities of foreign collaborators.

[AmyLizzie]

Your statements make me think of an observation by Robert Benchley, "We are constantly being surprised that people did things well before we were born."

I love that! How dare people have lives before I was born... :rolleyes: But I agree with you, people haven't changed. Another quote I love, although I'm not sure where I heard it...is 'People don't change, circumstances do.'

[Pat Floyd]

Very good, AmyLizzie!

[annie]

I quite agree.

I am reading Robert Crais: The First Rule which is written from the pov of Joe Pike - one of mystery fiction's great characters IMO (and I've read enough of it!)

[Sabiny21]

As part of my ongoing study of the Nazis and how a civilized nation like Germany could commit some of the most evil acts in human history, last night I started *Popular Opinion & Political Dessent in the Third Reich: Bavaria 1933-1945 by Ian Kershaw.

I have read quite a few books about the Nazis and how they came to power and what they did once they came to power; now I am increasingly turning to how people lived under the regime, how many resisted (or at least forbore) living under the Nazi authority in both Germany and conquered lands, and the more despicable activities of foreign collaborators.

SCWillson,

My husband was very interested in that question too so I got summaries on everything and became interested myself. It's a very chilling question to explore and I think most people find it easier to think of Hitler and the Nazis as something inhuman, who did not live in a civilized society, and have families of their own.

Anyway, I know it's not a book, but you might find the movie 'Downfall' an interesting addition to your research. It's through the eyes of Hitler's secretary, Traudi Junge, during the last days of the Third Reich, and I believe contains an actual interview with her.

I just read the anti-war book 'Slaughterhouse Five' by Kurt Vonnegut, who was a POW in WWII and survived the Dresden firebombing. Definitely not what I expected, but it left me thinking.

-Sabrina

[SCWillson]

SCWillson,

My husband was very interested in that question too so I got summaries on everything and became interested myself. It's a very chilling question to explore and I think most people find it easier to think of Hitler and the Nazis as something inhuman, who did not live in a civilized society, and have families of their own.Sabrina, it is a chilling subject and to me what is most chilling about it is that there is no reason to think it could not happen again even in the United States. One thing that's become increasingly clear over the years I've studied Nazi Germany is that most people just go along with the crowd or whatever causes them the least inconvenience and/or money. And very few people jump wholesale into committing acts of evil; they inch into it.

Anyway, I know it's not a book, but you might find the movie 'Downfall' an interesting addition to your research. It's through the eyes of Hitler's secretary, Traudi Junge, during the last days of the Third Reich, and I believe contains an actual interview with her.Sounds interesting; I'll have to see if Netflix has it available - they have a surprisingly large number of documentaries about Nazi Germany and occupied Europe.

Steve

[Sabiny21]

Sabrina, it is a chilling subject and to me what is most chilling about it is that there is no reason to think it could not happen again even in the United States. One thing that's become increasingly clear over the years I've studied Nazi Germany is that most people just go along with the crowd or whatever causes them the least inconvenience and/or money. And very few people jump wholesale into committing acts of evil; they inch into it.

Sounds interesting; I'll have to see if Netflix has it available - they have a surprisingly large number of documentaries about Nazi Germany and occupied Europe.

Steve

Steve,

Oh absolutely. We visited Germany a few years ago (Berlin, Koln, Munich, Wittenberg) and stayed with a family who lived in East Germany. It really impressed me that Germany as a whole did not try to hide their past. I forget the exact age (12 or 13 I want to say), but children take a field trip to tour one of the Concentration Camps and they discuss very bluntly what happened, because they do not want it to ever happen again.

It seems to me that parents in the USA tend to shy away from discussing the Holocaust with their kids and not every school covers it in their curriculum. I'm constantly surprised to find that many of the USA's younger generation have never heard of the Holocaust or they think it was only in the movies. I got into a discussion with one man, who appeared well educated, clean-cut, and he told me that 'there was never a Holocaust, it was all propaganda'. People like to brush things under the rug because it's not pretty or like you said it inconveniences them and that kind of attitude only contributes to the chances of something like the Holocaust happening again. The unthinking crowd mentality is very scary.

[Pat Floyd]

It seems to me that parents in the USA tend to shy away from discussing the Holocaust with their kids and not every school covers it in their curriculum. I'm constantly surprised to find that many of the USA's younger generation have never heard of the Holocaust or they think it was only in the movies. I got into a discussion with one man, who appeared well educated, clean-cut, and he told me that 'there was never a Holocaust, it was all propaganda'. People like to brush things under the rug because it's not pretty or like you said it inconveniences them and that kind of attitude only contributes to the chances of something like the Holocaust happening again. The unthinking crowd mentality is very scary.

When I was in my teens in the 1940s, we heard often the following poem by a leader of the few Protestants who resisted Hitler:

First They Came for the Jews
by Pastor Niemoller
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

We badly need to reawaken awareness of the conquences of ignoring the rights and wellbeing of any of our people.

[Jennifer]

Not believing the Holocaust happened is just beyond my imagining. That someone could advance that theory and then convince people of it, it's just almost as mind-blowing as the Holocaust itself because, if you can believe it didn't happen, then it certainly can happen again. That's convoluted but I think it makes sense. That we have deteriorated into a nation of conspiracy-theorists is tremendously ironic considering we have more access to knowledge, facts, information than at any time ever in the history of the world. It seems that the speed at which we can communicate has impaired our judgement...
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Not believing the Holocaust happened is just beyond my imagining. That someone could advance that theory and then convince people of it, it's just almost as mind-blowing as the Holocaust itself because, if you can believe it didn't happen, then it certainly can happen again. That's convoluted but I think it makes sense.I think most of those people who act as advocates for the "there was no Holocaust" (like David Irving and Iran's President) know perfectly well there was; they are muddying the waters because they have an anti-Jewish/Israel agenda. I'm certain there are also plenty of people who honestly believe it because they want to.

That we have deteriorated into a nation of conspiracy-theorists is tremendously ironic considering we have more access to knowledge, facts, information than at any time ever in the history of the world. It seems that the speed at which we can communicate has impaired our judgement...It's not just the US; this kind of thing is rampant in parts of Europe and throughout the Muslim world as well.

The easy access to information makes it easy to be overwhelmed by the utterly enormous amount of data available; particularly for those with a limited knowledge of history and context and/or no ability to think logically. I've lost track of the number of people I've encountered, mostly young, who think reading a Wikipedia article or two on a given topic gives them a solid knowledge of that topic. As I've stated here previously, one needs to read numerous sources from different points of view to even begin to understand something. (A couple months ago on a military history forum I frequent I had a critic who based on a single 30 paragraph long Wiki article on the Enlightenment thought he had a good knowledge of it and posted the link to it like he'd found the Holy Grail. When I pointed out I'd read more than 40 books (and listed most of them) on that topic he accused me of claiming expertise when my entire point was that I wasn't an expert even after all those books. Real experts read source materials and do original research; at best I'd consider myself a reasonably well-read layman on the topic.

The very concept of extensive study and deep thought seems to be eroding in our smartphone/Google/Wikipedia world.

[Sabiny21]

The very concept of extensive study and deep thought seems to be eroding in our smartphone/Google/Wikipedia world.

In my case, I prefer: I'mtolazytoreadanonfictionbooksoi'llaskmyhusbandfo rasummary.com

-Sabrina

[Jennifer]

The very concept of extensive study and deep thought seems to be eroding in our smartphone/Google/Wikipedia world.
Our confidence in the information available on the internet is frightening. WIKI articles??? They can be a nice little place to start but they are at the level of "water-cooler" talk and that's entertainment, not knowledge. I love the internet for certain things but I would never ever want it to be my soul source of knowledge or information. But we are lazy and we will become like those characters in "Wall-e," sedentary well-meaning idiots...
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Now starting A Turbulant, Seditious, and Factious People: John Bunyan and his Church by Christopher Hill. Looking at my 2011 reading list, this will be the sixth book by this author I've read.

John Bunyan is of course famous for writing Pilgrim's Progress back in the 17th century.

[Jennifer]

Now starting A Turbulant, Seditious, and Factious People: John Bunyan and his Church by Christopher Hill. Looking at my 2011 reading list, this will be the sixth book by this author I've read.

John Bunyan is of course famous for writing Pilgrim's Progress back in the 17th century.
Just a question: How often have you read 6 books by the same historian? How does it sit? Does he have a central organizing point that runs through his books? I have only read multiple books by the same historian a few times and I have found this to be somewhat the case.

A variation of this is when I have read every book I can find on a subject (also done this rarely) and I was amazed at the wildly different interpretations I found. Case in point, T.E. Lawrence. It seemed every author wanted to reinvent him from the ground up.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Just a question: How often have you read 6 books by the same historian? How does it sit? Does he have a central organizing point that runs through his books? I have only read multiple books by the same historian a few times and I have found this to be somewhat the case.A few times, but not as a rule on the same topic. Most authors are not actual historians whereas Christopher Hill's (a late Master of Balliol College) knowledge of the English revolutionary period is well nigh mind-boggling. He's also an interesting writer. Despite being a self-admitted Marxist he seems to have a great deal of affection and respect for the Puritans and other English religious radicals of this period.

A variation of this is when I have read every book I can find on a subject (also done this rarely) and I was amazed at the wildly different interpretations I found. Case in point, T.E. Lawrence. It seemed every author wanted to reinvent him from the ground up.See how many takes there are on Abraham Lincoln or Winston Churchill (two of my personal heroes). As a rule though I think most people only read those interpretations that support their own pre-existing views. Those who consider Lincoln a tyrant will read books that portray him as such.

[Jennifer]

I agree that it's likely people work to find the kind of interpretation they want to find. That's why my T.E. Lawrence experience was unique. I just kept finding weirder and weirder explanations for him. I think I would like to find a historiographical or bibliographical essay on how various historian/authors have portrayed him. I know the same sort of thing would be extremely interesting for your two faves.
Jennifer

[annie]

When I drive between my old & new homes, I pass the statue of John Bunyan in Bedford - he is pointing forwards, with scenes from Pilgrim's Progress engraved on the plinth.
If any of you visit Bedfordshire (as Meredith did recently!) the museum at the Moot House in Elstow is very interesting, full of information about the Protestant & Reformation movements; & you can do walks around the places that inspired him.

And to lower the tone to my usual standards: I've been enjoying one of the Stephanie Plum between-the-numbers books.

[Lenore]

I just finished Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow's The Grand Design. I really could not understand all of it, but what I understood was fascinating.

[SCWillson]

I just finished Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow's The Grand Design. I really could not understand all of it, but what I understood was fascinating.As Nobel-laureate physicist Richard Feynman once observed, if quantum physics don't give you a headache, then you don't understand quantum physics.

[Jennifer]

As Nobel-laureate physicist Richard Feynman once observed, if quantum physics don't give you a headache, then you don't understand quantum physics.
That's a good one! Feynman is my husband's (a physicist) hero...
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

That's a good one! Feynman is my husband's (a physicist) hero...
JenniferHe's truly one of the great characters of 20th century science. His books are wonderful reads.

[Pat Floyd]

He's truly one of the great characters of 20th century science. His books are wonderful reads.

Richard Feynman is one of my favorite people. I admire absolutely his intellect and his contributions to science, but what appeals to me especially is his sense of humor and what an interesting man he was. I like his tender care of his first wife, his interest in teaching freshmen, and his unfailing curiosity.

He once said, "I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy," but he showed a great deal of wisdom IMO in statements about government's role to maintain freedom and about religion. What he labeled as religion was not adequate for the kind of person he was. He said, for instance, that God was invented to explain what we don't understand, and that has been true to a limited extent, but such a view of God keeps those who hold it on the defensive. An immanent and transcendent Presence is revealed more in what we do understand.

A quotation from The Meaning Of It All: Thoughts of a Citizen-Scientist, 1998 states, "When . . . the mystery and majesty of matter are fully appreciated, to then turn the objective eye back on man viewed as matter, to view life as part of this universal mystery of greatest depth, is to sense an experience which is very rare, and very exciting. It usually ends in laughter and delight in the futility of trying to understand what this atom in the universe is, this thing—atoms with curiosity—that looks at itself and wonders why it wonders. Well, these scientific views end in awe and mystery, lost at the edge in uncertainty, but they appear to be so deep and so impressive that the theory that it is all arranged for God to watch man's struggle for good and evil seems inadequate." This is a deeply religious statement if I've ever read one, yet Feynman seemed to identify all religion from the limited perspective of the struggle between good and evil.

Another quotation from the same source could be applied to both religion and politics and has certainly been bourne out by history: "Looking back at the worst times, it always seems that they were times in which there were people who believed with absolute faith and absolute dogmatism in something. And they were so serious in this matter that they insisted that the rest of the world agree with them. And then they would do things that were directly inconsistent with their own beliefs in order to maintain that what they said was true."

[SCWillson]

Started English Democratic Ideas in the 17th Century by G.P. Gooch.

This is considered a classic work in the field and was first published in the mid-1890's. Amazingly the author was able to write a new forward for the book when it was reprinted in 1962! Gooch was a follower of Lord Acton.

[Jennifer]

Started English Democratic Ideas in the 17th Century by G.P. Gooch.

This is considered a classic work in the field and was first published in the mid-1890's. Amazingly the author was able to write a new forward for the book when it was reprinted in 1962! Gooch was a follower of Lord Acton.

Wow! That man lived for a very long time. Sort of nullifies my example of E. M. Forster...Oh yes and Frank Lloyd Wright. He lived on and on and on...
Jennifer

[Elizabeth Chase]

Currently reading The Great Game by Peter Hopkirk, which Ms. King acknowledges as her resource for much of the background of The Game. I'd like to read his book about Kim but the library doesn't have it. Time to use the interlibrary loan system!

[Jennifer]

Couldn't get hold of the bio that Steve recommended on Churchill (just yet, but it's coming) so I started Paul Johnson's biography. I don't know if it's the best biography. He really likes Churchill and in our current political climate, it's hard to believe someone could be so fond of a leader. I am convinced that the only reason he was able to lead England during WWII is that other leaders let him lead. Not that he didn't have enemies but somehow a truce was struck for a time. It's almost impossible to imagine such a situation. I know that so many people hate him, notice I didn't say "hated" because I am sure I can stir up vitriol that must live in the dna, even in this group. But what ever the reaction, he was the person who lead England, for better or worse.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Couldn't get hold of the bio that Steve recommended on Churchill (just yet, but it's coming) so I started Paul Johnson's biography. I don't know if it's the best biography. He really likes Churchill and in our current political climate, it's hard to believe someone could be so fond of a leader. I am convinced that the only reason he was able to lead England during WWII is that other leaders let him lead. Not that he didn't have enemies but somehow a truce was struck for a time. It's almost impossible to imagine such a situation. I know that so many people hate him, notice I didn't say "hated" because I am sure I can stir up vitriol that must live in the dna, even in this group. But what ever the reaction, he was the person who lead England, for better or worse.Churchill was England's wartime leader because other so-called leaders had either abdicated their responsibilities by disarmament or shown themselves to be complete fools (Neville Chamberlain) in the face of Hitler. Since Churchill had been warning about the dangers of the Nazis since the mid-20's he was the only political figure with credibility who was considered to have the stones to stand up to Hitler.

[Jennifer]

Churchill was England's wartime leader because other so-called leaders had either abdicated their responsibilities by disarmament or shown themselves to be complete fools (Neville Chamberlain) in the face of Hitler. Since Churchill had been warning about the dangers of the Nazis since the mid-20's he was the only political figure with credibility who was considered to have the stones to stand up to Hitler.

I think he's a phenomenon because if he hadn't been ready to take the helm, and if Britains hadn't been willing to believe he could lead them, who knows what might have happened? Doesn't seem there's been another one like him.
Jennifer
Just finished this bio and I can't get over the power of an indomitable spirit. He was a force of nature.

[annie]

In the Government of National Unity, there was a general recognition that he would be the best leader (even from his arch-enemy, Aneurin Bevan). But everyone also remembered that he was no friend of the working class (Tonypandy was not as Josephine Tey described it either!)
Whatever people thought of him as a war-time leader, they voted against him in 1945 to get a great reforming Parliament.
In the interests of accuracy I should add that he became Prime Minister again in 1951 - then to be the first of our present Queen's 11 (so far) PMs.

Anyone interested in reading about the era from the other side can try Michael Foot's biography of Bevan - also of course, an account of the founding of the NHS.

[SCWillson]

I think he's a phenomenon because if he hadn't been ready to take the helm, and if Britains hadn't been willing to believe he could lead them, who knows what might have happened? Doesn't seem there's been another one like him.
Jennifer
Just finished this bio and I can't get over the power of an indomitable spirit. He was a force of nature.An excellent description.

IMHO (and I freely admit to being biased) Winston Churchill is the greatest Englishman of the past century and arguably of the past several. Certainly the 20th century contains no one of comparable status.

[annie]

In 2002 the BBC did a poll to find the 100 greatest Britons.
WC came in first (championed by a great, but sadly now dead, Labour politican, Mo Mowlam). Isambard Kingdom Brunel came in 2nd
So far so good - then the great British public (or at least that section inclined to vote) decided that the late Diana, Princess of Wales should be 3rd, ahead of Shakespeare, Newton, Darwin and the rest of the gang.....................

[Jennifer]

Annie,
It's precisely because of you that I knew a whole lot more about the "other" side of the story than I did about Churchill! I think you hold up your end very well. And you are right. Churchill's government (a coalition) was voted out before the end of the war. The biographer noted what a bitter pill that was for him but that he believed in the will of the people. Another interesting aside, had Churchill retained his position, it would have most certainly have affected his health and possibly shortened his life. As it was, he stepped back, wrote books, painted, toured, in short, reclaimed his life. I do not pretend to understand the ins and outs of British politics, who's a bugaboo, who's good, but I do know that Churchill had an ability to triumph under circumstances that would have killed a lesser man.
Jennifer

[Jennifer]

In 2002 the BBC did a poll to find the 100 greatest Britons.
WC came in first (championed by a great, but sadly now dead, Labour politican, Mo Mowlam). Isambard Kingdom Brunel came in 2nd
So far so good - then the great British public (or at least that section inclined to vote) decided that the late Diana, Princess of Wales should be 3rd, ahead of Shakespeare, Newton, Darwin and the rest of the gang.....................
I am betting that she came in 3rd because she seemed to bring up all kinds of emotions in people. She was tragic, she did some good works, she was done wrong by someone more powerful than her, she was constantly in the public eye, she was beautiful and oh, did I mention she was tragic? The sad thing is that people answering that poll did not discern the difference between someone they had a lot of feelings for and someone who'd done great things.
Jennifer

[annie]

I don't think she would get as many votes a decade on, but it was a huge project for the BBC (not just a click exercise, but lots of excellent programmes) so won't be repeated for awhile.
Actually, the rest of the top 10 was as expected, and I was delighted with the numbers of scientists in there, as we often favour the arts.
There were 2 royals (Diana & Elizabeth 1) 2 politicians ( WC & Oliver Cromwell), 2 writers (Shakespeare, of course & John Lennon) a military leader (Nelson & you could put OC in as well) and Darwin, Newton, Brunel.
Typically, we placed highly Guy Fawkes! Oh, and Richard 3 got into the top 100 as well!

[SCWillson]

Starting Wallington’s World: A Puritan Artisan in Seventeenth-Century London by Paul Seaver.

Wallington was a turner (he made legs for chairs and tables on a wood lathe) and, a rarity amongst those not from the educated and/or upper classes, kept extensive journals of his daily life.

[Lenore]

Just finished Two Lives: Gertrude and Alice, Janet Malcolm's biography of Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas. What made it all the more interesting was that it was combined with a trip (my more-or-less annual gathering of lady friends) to see two exhibits on Gertrude Stein (one on her life and one on the paintings collected by Stein and her brothers) and an exhibit about Picasso, of whom Stein may have been the first avid patron, and finally, the Woody Allen movie Midnight in Paris, in which Gertrude Stein (along with Picasso, and other writers and artists of the 1920s) plays a role. I'm intrigued by how Stein managed to make herself such a celebrity and -- where art and literature were concerned, a tastemaker. I'll probably try to read Stein's Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas, but I gather from the Malcolm book that most of the rest of Stein's writings were virtually unreadable.

[Jennifer]

I'll probably try to read Stein's Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas, but I gather from the Malcolm book that most of the rest of Stein's writings were virtually unreadable.
I was under the impression her poetry was difficult but "most of the rest" was unreadable? That makes me wonder if something were up or she was just a terrible writer?
Jennifer

[Lenore]

That makes me wonder if something were up or she was just a terrible writer?


According to what I've read, she was trying to create a modern, "cubist" writing style. And one of the main reasons that she shut her brother Leo out of her life was that he told her that she WAS a terrible writer!

[annie]

I really only know the bits that get quoted in cookery books, like smelling roast chicken in Paris after the war.
I always got the impression that GS & ABT were famous for being eccentric and the circles they moved in.
I think it was either GS or ABT who wrote about a guest of whom their cook disapproved, she said: I shall fry the eggs in butter and serve them. It will take the same amount of eggs & butter, but it is not an omelette.

[Jennifer]

My impressions of them are almost non-existent except that GS encouraged writers. Didn't they have some connection with Ernest Hemingway? I like the explanation of being a "cubist" writer. Sounds much better than just being a terrible writer. But the problem is, the normal brain, even good ones, aren't wired like that. Maybe it takes practice but I am still being challenged by traditional writing so I will leave that pursuit to more adventurous readers and writers.
Jennifer

[annie]

There was a circle of American writers & artists in France just before WW2: F Scott Fitz, Hemingway, GS, Josephine Baker and some jazz musicians, Lilian Helman etc. Some (JB & ?LH) helped in the Resistance - indeed JB is still feted in France for her work, you can visit her house.

I do have a copy of the Alice B. Toklas recipe book, but it is (like everything else I want to read....) in storage!

[Jennifer]

You know,
This group of writers always struck me as "early hipsters." I risk your approbation (as a group) by saying that this group of writers and personalities never impressed me as a whole. I think "dissolute" is the impression I have always had of them.
Jennifer

[Elizabeth Chase]

Perhaps Gertrude was stoned on Alice's marijuana-laced brownies whilst she was writing . . .

[Jennifer]

Perhaps Gertrude was stoned on Alice's marijuana-laced brownies whilst she was writing . . .
That could explain quite a lot.
Jennifer

[annie]

You know,
This group of writers always struck me as "early hipsters." I risk your approbation (as a group) by saying that this group of writers and personalities never impressed me as a whole. I think "dissolute" is the impression I have always had of them.
Jennifer

Oh, I have enjoyed Hemingway & FSF - they are powerful writers. The description of Catherine's death is deeply moving.
I don't give a toss about the private lives of writers, other than the effect it has on their work - eg: Tender is the Night is obviously written by someone who lived with a mentally ill wife (why she was mentally ill is of course another matter...)

I have finished The Bellini card and am reading Hazel Holt's A Time to Die. She is such a good writer, her descriptions are exquisite. Her inability to write decent villains is a blessing & a curse - it puts her firmly in the "cosy" category, but she does convey the ridiculous tangle ordinary people can make of their lives.

[Jennifer]

Oh, I have enjoyed Hemingway & FSF - they are powerful writers. The description of Catherine's death is deeply moving.
I don't give a toss about the private lives of writers, other than the effect it has on their work - eg: Tender is the Night is obviously written by someone who lived with a mentally ill wife (why she was mentally ill is of course another matter...)

I have finished The Bellini card ...
I wish I didn't give a toss about the private lives of writers. We just get inundated these days with info and gossip about people, living and dead. And their "courage" or "despair" get such a lot of play. F. Scott was a tragedy all on his own. I do love "The Great Gatsby" but I am afraid that familiarity with Hemingway as a person ruined any of his writing for me. And when you are only a personality, like Gertrude Stein, her private life is all you have to go on. As much as I love reading about people's real lives, there are many I wish I didn't know about.

Oh and thank you for not spilling any beans about "The Bellini Card." I am waiting for it on cd and love a fresh mystery!
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Started Crowded with Genius: The Scottish Enlightenment; Edinburgh’s Moment of the Mind by James Buchan.

[Pat Floyd]

I enjoyed reading the discussion around Churchill. He was the right leader for Britain and the West during WWII. I think a number of 20th century leaders met especially the needs and opportunities of their time, Franklin Roosevelt and Martin Luther King, Jr. in particular.

The BBC poll of greatest Brits is interesting. I've been reading The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, by Michael H. Hart, 1978. I deplore Hart's politics of late, but his selections and analyses are interesting. Note that this selection is not of the greatest people, but the most influential. Only 21 of the 100 are political leaders or heads of state: from the US, George Washington 27th, Thomas Jefferson 70th, John Kennedy 80th, listed only for his initiating the space program; from Britain, Oliver Cromwell 47th, William the Conqueror 69th, Elizabeth I 95th. The top 50 includes only 3 from the US: Washington, Orville and Wilbur Wright 30th, Thomas Edison 38th. There are many from England and Scotland: Isaac Newton 2nd, Charles Darwin 17th, James Watt 25th, Michael Faraday 28th, James Clerk Maxwell 29th, a great physicist (1831-1879) I hadn't known about, to name a few.

The listing I was most pleased to see was Asoka (52nd) who ruled in India from about 273 to 232 B.C.E. Years ago I came across Asoka in a history of India and was amazed that such a ruler had ever existed. This is the first time I've seen him mentioned anywhere else. Near the beginning of Asoka's rule he continued the conquests of his predecessors, but was so grieved by the suffering he had caused that he renounced aggressive warfare and promoted truthfulness, mercy, and nonviolence. He built hospitals, animal sanctuaries, roads, and irrigation projects. His influence is seen in his adoption of Buddhism and promoting Buddhist missions to other countries.

[annie]

That sounds very interesting Pat. It is difficult to make "world" lists as any of us come from a specific cultural perspective. It is good to see an attempt to redress the balance, and nice to see figure we regard as so important put in their place!
Melvyn Bragg did a series about 12 books that changed the world: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Books_That_Changed_the_World)

It was acknowledged that it could only be from a "Western" perspective; hence the absence of any Holy Book other than the KJB - and a specific reason for its inclusion was the translation to the common tongue.
I was surprised he left out the Communist Manifesto (as I have heard it argued that the romantic language itself was an influence).
And even though I am a huge fan of Shakespeare, I am not sure that he "changed the world" - really he reflected it. Our world might be poorer without his work, but significantly different?

[Jennifer]

I had the pleasure of recommending books to a friend yesterday and of course, first had to tell her about "BEEK." It was great that I was doing it for her kindle. I knew I didn't have to give her umpteen details about acquiring them from the library, which format, etc. And then encourage her if books weren't available immediately. No, she'll just go on-line and get what she wants. Also recommended the "Janissary Tree." She loves series that have several books so both my recommendations fit her bill! My next move will be to mention the VBC to her!
Second reading of Janissary Tree has filled in myriad blanks acquired by listening much too quickly first time round. Someone mentioned that Goodwin gets better stylistically as the books go on and I think that bodes very well. Yashim is an interesting character on many levels. Someone also mentioned he's an outsider and of course, that helps but what makes him so fascinating is that depending on the situation, he's higher or lower, outsider or insider with all the people he meets. To some people he's merely a eunuch, to others, he's a gentleman, a learned gentleman. In every situation he's an outsider and the definition is always changing. I am sort of wondering if his assignation with Eugenia doesn't stretch the credibility of it a bit far. What fun to go through life being the wildcard in every situation???
Jennifer

[annie]

That is one of the interesting things about social interaction. What do you find most interesting about a person you have just met? What characteristics define them in your eyes? A lot of comedy (and tragedy) turns around the assumptions we make on first acquaintance.

And a huge thanks to Pat who sent a copy of 13th Night (Amy, I'll be sending it on). I don't know if we are going to be able to discuss it, but I have enjoyed it hugely.
It helps that I know 12th Night well, having done a lot of backstage work on our school production (xxxxx years ago, but quality lingers!)
I don't think it's a spoiler to say that the fool we knew as Feste has to travel in disguise, and he finds it difficult that people relate differently to him ( just as they do to Cesario / Viola)
It just twinkles along!

[MaryL]

I discovered 13th Night earlier this year when it came up for consideration-I love it! AND so did my DH, who normally only reads History (cap intentional). Do hope we can get a discussion going...

[Lenore]

I don't get HBO, but all the publicity and raves I heard about "The Game of Thrones" made me curious to try the books by George R.R. Martin, so I downloaded it to my mp3 player. I'm less than half-way through, but I'm definitely and completely hooked. I can see I'm going to be working my way through the series.

[jtb1951]

And a huge thanks to Pat who sent a copy of 13th Night (Amy, I'll be sending it on). I don't know if we are going to be able to discuss it, but I have enjoyed it hugely.

I discovered 13th Night earlier this year when it came up for consideration-I love it! AND so did my DH, who normally only reads History (cap intentional). Do hope we can get a discussion going...

I'm glad that you both enjoyed Thirteenth Night, the succeeding books get increasingly more interesting, imho! I'm just sorry that Alan is apparently finished with the Fool's Guild series after last year's 8th book, Parisian Prodigal. I guess I will have to be content with re-reading them all!:)

John.

[jtb1951]

I don't get HBO, but all the publicity and raves I heard about "The Game of Thrones" made me curious to try the books by George R.R. Martin, so I downloaded it to my mp3 player. I'm less than half-way through, but I'm definitely and completely hooked. I can see I'm going to be working my way through the series.

I have been enjoying this series of books since A Game of Thrones was first published but it has been a six year wait for the latest book and I will probably go back and read the first four books again before I read A Dance With Dragons. I highly recommend the series!

John.

[annie]

Re: series.
I do think that it is a wise writer who knows just before a series has run its course, and leaves us wanting more.
We can all think of writers who have done this, and those who haven't.

[Elizabeth Chase]

Re: series.
I do think that it is a wise writer who knows just before a series has run its course, and leaves us wanting more.
We can all think of writers who have done this, and those who haven't.

Add Jean Auel to the list of authors who went one book too far; perhaps even two books!! Recently I bought the final book of her Earth's Children series, The Land of Painted Caves. Very quickly into the book I remembered that I really hadn't liked the previous one, The Shelter of Stone. She'd have been better off to have stopped the series with The Plains of Passage when Ayla and Jondalar returned to Jondalar's people. Unread book is now in my pile to be given to Goodwill.

[Jennifer]

I feel very much the same about the last Amelia Peabody. It was as if it were written by someone who only had a passing knowledge of Elizabeth Peters' style. And I so wanted one more turn with Ramses and Nefret...
Jennifer

[Elizabeth Chase]

I feel very much the same about the last Amelia Peabody. It was as if it were written by someone who only had a passing knowledge of Elizabeth Peters' style. And I so wanted one more turn with Ramses and Nefret...
Jennifer

Definitely agree. If there was a story at that point (don't remember the year), she should have written it then. I wonder if her publisher pressured her into writing it?

JKRowling starting having difficulties when she was writing Goblet of Fire (#4) and IMO never completely recovered. Don't get me wrong I love the basic story, it's merely the execution that falls short.

I hope I'm not going to be disappointed by the new George R. R. Martin book . . .

[Jennifer]

JKRowling starting having difficulties when she was writing Goblet of Fire (#4) and IMO never completely recovered. Don't get me wrong I love the basic story, it's merely the execution that falls short. .
You know it's said she had started GOF going in one direction and had to completely abandon the plotline. Ron was supposed to have a cousin on "the outside" who was feeding all that species "news" about Harry to the outside world. In the end, it all had to be replotted and rewritten and by that time no one had the guts to edit her, suggest editing, anything. She was so big. It didn't do her much good, as a writer. Of course she could have written "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" a million times and people would have bought it by then...
jennife

[SCWillson]

Add Jean Auel to the list of authors who went one book too far; perhaps even two books!! Recently I bought the final book of her Earth's Children series, The Land of Painted Caves. Very quickly into the book I remembered that I really hadn't liked the previous one, The Shelter of Stone. She'd have been better off to have stopped the series with The Plains of Passage when Ayla and Jondalar returned to Jondalar's people. Unread book is now in my pile to be given to Goodwill.Quite frankly I'd have been happy if Auel had stopped after The Mammoth Hunters. IMO the series plunged rapidly in quality after that.

I'll find out in another month if LRK has also jumped the shark after the dreadful disappointment of the last two books.

[Jennifer]

Just started a new bio of T.E. Lawrence. It already has some interesting insights. Remember the headdress from the film and how glamorous and exotic it seemed? Apparently foreigners were so hated by the Bedu, for his safety, Lawrence was given one to wear on his early visits into tribal areas. Not the elaborate gorgeous one initially, but something that would keep his profile within the norms. Korda said that when ever British officers would wear the kafiyah, they'd put it on over their solar topi, making them look like a grotesque beehive. Lawrence first wore a kafiyah as an archeology student and never did that, thank goodness! He seemed destined to go native from the beginning...
Jennifer

[LaideeMarjorie]

Hi, all. I'm just popping in to invite you to SJ Rozan's Author Page on Facebook and to "Like" her page. She posts there about writing and books and there is even a link to her blog called Six Word Stories where you can submit a mystery story written in only six words. Our own John T.B. recently had one of his stories posted there. You'd be amazed at the variety of entries if you haven't read them before.

I love reading her Lydia Chin/Bill Smith series and I have been lucky to have read an advanced copy of the next book in the series, GHOST HERO, which will be out on Sept. 27th.

Here's the link if you are interested:

http://www.facebook.com/AuthorSJRozan

Thanks very much,
Laidee Marjorie

[SCWillson]

Starting Fire from Heaven: Life in an English Town in the Seventeen Century by David Underdown.

The book describes a 17th century town, Dorchester, which, after a catastrophic 1613 fire which destroys half of the town, decides to rebuild itself as a religious Utopia. The results were both positive and negative.

[Jennifer]

I have to say, if I had picked up Michael Korda's bio of Lawrence first, if David Lean had had the chance to pick this book up, he might just have made a first class portrait of the man rather than the highly colored, highly romanticized, high-strung version he was going for. I haven't come to a lot of controversy yet, in the real life of this man, but I know by this time in most of the works (and film) I already encountered all kinds of oddness. Not saying he was "normal" because he wasn't but Korda is doing a great job of telling me about a man I didn't know. He was a military strategist developing many techniques that are unfortunately studied by both terrorists and those who would thwart terror tactics. He had the "eye" for a location. He could look at a fort or a stronghold and tell you where the attack was likely to come, how to battle it. He was a judge of fighting men, knowing instinctively who could lead men. Even in dark moments, he could see where the possibilities lie, strategically speaking. Rather than being portrayed as so tortured, Korda seems to have looked at the things he did, the things he wrote, the way he dealt with the situations he was given and I really feel this is a biography with something new and illuminating to say about Lawrence.
Jennifer
PS Korda does include the politics of the time. Just getting into the nitty-gritty of the Sykes-Picot Agreement and Lawrence does not get a pass...

[Elizabeth Chase]

I have to say, if I had picked up Michael Korda's bio of Lawrence first, if David Lean had had the chance to pick this book up, he might just have made a first class portrait of the man rather than the highly colored, highly romanticized, high-strung version he was going for. I haven't come to a lot of controversy yet, in the real life of this man, but I know by this time in most of the works (and film) I already encountered all kinds of oddness. Not saying he was "normal" because he wasn't but Korda is doing a great job of telling me about a man I didn't know. He was a military strategist developing many techniques that are unfortunately studied by both terrorists and those who would thwart terror tactics. He had the "eye" for a location. He could look at a fort or a stronghold and tell you where the attack was likely to come, how to battle it. He was a judge of fighting men, knowing instinctively who could lead men. Even in dark moments, he could see where the possibilities lie, strategically speaking. Rather than being portrayed as so tortured, Korda seems to have looked at the things he did, the things he wrote, the way he dealt with the situations he was given and I really feel this is a biography with something new and illuminating to say about Lawrence.
Jennifer
PS Korda does include the politics of the time. Just getting into the nitty-gritty of the Sykes-Picot Agreement and Lawrence does not get a pass...

Oh good grief! Another book to add to my must read list . . .

I can't pull a title out of my 'attic', but I've read other Korda books. He's good.

[Jennifer]

Oh good grief! Another book to add to my must read list . . .

I can't pull a title out of my 'attic', but I've read other Korda books. He's good.
Hey Elizabeth,
This is a good book, I must say. Right now there is a discussion of Ned's growing up. Korda's pulling the reins back in a bit on some of the more lurid details of the mother's character. And he's explaining the whole "illegitimacy" problem. Just goes to show you how little attention I paid. I had forgotten totally about that. But it does explain some of the more interesting sides of Lawrence such as how comfortable he felt in changing his name. His dad had taken his mother's sir name after leaving his wife. So looking for anonymity in a new name was sort of a family trait. Much more, much much more. Very good book.
Jennifer

[annie]

This is my 2nd attempt to post today (I say this in case the other one pops up sometime!)
I was trawling through the library & spotted the name Alanna Knight. I had a feeling that someone here recommended her Inspector Faro mysteries (19C Edinburgh). I've not read any, and this is called An Inspector's Daughter and is about an amateur investigation undertaken by Faro's daughter Rose when she returns from America as a widow. I am enjoying it so far.

Also, co-incidentally, following a mention of Hemingway a few posts ago, Radio 4 are serialising A Farewell to Arms - a book that deeply affected me in my early teens. Even as I was listening today I was in tears as Catherine goes into labour.
I first read this at about the same time as Forever Amber, and fortunately as well, Gone With the Wind, to remind me that not all fictional heroines perished in childbirth!

[SCWillson]

I've started Worse Than War: Genocide, Eliminationism, and the Ongoing Assault on Humanity by Daniel Goldhagen. It's a bit controversial - the opening sentence is "Harry Truman was a mass murderer" - but is an important study of how genocide starts.

[tangential1]

Re: series.
I do think that it is a wise writer who knows just before a series has run its course, and leaves us wanting more.
We can all think of writers who have done this, and those who haven't.

Totally true! Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series comes to mind. And yet I can't seem to just say no to reading the new ones in that series. It's like really bad for you food (that's somehow not even really that tasty, come to think of it) that you know you're not going to appreciate later. :rolleyes:

I haven't read anything noteworthy lately. Oh, except maybe Tina Fey's memoir, which was super funny. I spent two days grinning like an idiot on the bus, trying not to laugh out loud. Really, a great way to start and end the work day! The book's not very well organized and Ms. Fey doesn't seem like she really had any particular thing she was trying to write about (I think I prefer non-fiction with a point like Bill Bryson), but, as you would expect from a comedy writer, the whole book is liberally peppered with awesomely funny commentary. My favorite, I think, was toward the end when she's talking about Christmas: "I prefer the retro chic of spending Christmas like Joseph and Mary did -- traveling arduously back to the place of your birth to be counted, with no guarantee of a bed when you get there." :p

[Elizabeth Chase]

Totally true! Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series comes to mind. And yet I can't seem to just say no to reading the new ones in that series. It's like really bad for you food (that's somehow not even really that tasty, come to think of it) that you know you're not going to appreciate later. :rolleyes:

Still loving them, yet wondering when the tale is going to end!!

[Jennifer]

Gather 'round! I need advice on some emergency reading I will be doing in a hospital room for the next 2 days. My mother, God bless her, has piles of best-sellers she is hoarding (there! I said it!) and I need to pick on of these darling books because I am out of time to find a quick read, having just finished my Sherlock Holmes (I know I should have waited but SH is like a box of opened chocolates, a little is never enough...). You know the kind of book, Scottoline was one of the names. Is she good?
I'll try to get back on with other names. That Tina Fey quotation works at other times of the year as well....
Jennifer
PS My mother is having knee replacement and I am the designated attendant...

[annie]

Good luck Jennifer, and to your mum as well.
I always suggest a re-read of much-loved books in that situation; soothing, don't require total concentration, easily picked up & put down. So SH might be just right. Mine are: SH, Wilkie Collins, Lord of the Rings, Period Piece, and more recently, Harry Potter & His Dark Materials.

I also suggest that if you like something like knitting, crochet etc. to take that. But not something complex!

Patients often want your soothing presence, for you to do things when needed, but not to have you staring at them the whole time! So something that takes half a brain is just right!

[Lenore]

I'm currently listening to Steve Hockensmith's Holmes on the Range, the first in a series of mysteries about two cowboy brothers in late 19th century Montana who have read the Sherlock Holmes stories. The elder of the two takes up solving mysteries by "deducifying," and his younger brother, the narrator, is his Watson. I'm not sure if I want to read the whole series, but this one is absolutely charming.

[Jennifer]

Thanks for the advice because that's exactly what happened! The first day I listened to my Lawrence bio while she was in surgery and then I had to attend to her and the knitting was just the right amount of activity. I could pick it up and put it down as needed. She is doing very well but today has been challenging because the level of pain medication has to be reduced a bit and that has to be very difficult. But with any luck at all, she is going to have her mobility back!
Thanks again for all the good advice.
Jennifer

[annie]

Good luck to you both

[Lenore]

Inspired by Steve and Jennifer, I downloaded the first volume of William Manchester's Churchill biography, The Last Lion, to my mp3 player. Manchester spends a lot of pages discussing the world into which Churchill was born in 1874, and most especially, the England and London into which he was born. Of course, all this is interesting in itself and important to understand the forces that shaped Churchill's personality. However, for Sherlock Holmes fans, it is doubly interesting, because it describes the world in which Holmes, too, was formed -- Holmes having been born (if LRK is correct) in 1861, only 13 years before Churchill. Casts a lot of light on the probable thinking of Conan Doyle (who, unlike Churchill, would have been middle class rather than an aristocrat, and thus leading a profoundly different life, according to Manchester) as he created his hero.

[Jennifer]

Lenore,
This is all very apropos of so much we read here. The world of Churchill, the world of Holmes, the world that made WWI possible. I have been reading the Korda T.E. Lawrence bio and he does try to set everything in context. It's a big picture with European and Middle Eastern politics all mixed up and roiling. He's also been very good to explain problems of Victorian society, how easy it was for T.E.L. to have been born illegitimately. How easy it was for a person to change his name and disappear. I know this may make no sense but I know it all fits together to show a picture of a world that was both endlessly fascinating and filled with difficulties and trials and unknowns...
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Inspired by Steve and Jennifer, I downloaded the first volume of William Manchester's Churchill biography, The Last Lion, to my mp3 player. Manchester spends a lot of pages discussing the world into which Churchill was born in 1874, and most especially, the England and London into which he was born.My all-time favorite biography and a book I've read often enough to be on my second copy.

[SCWillson]

Starting The Dissenters: From the Reformation to the French Revolution by Michael Watts; which covers political and religious dissent movements (often the same thing) during this period and focuses (Surprise!) on the Enlightenment.

[Jennifer]

Steve,
Do you see any connections between the philosophy of the Enlightenment (and the attendant forces it may have set in motion) and the early 20th century in Europe? Seems a tremendous amount of psychic energy was concentrated on and in that area during that span of time.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Steve,
Do you see any connections between the philosophy of the Enlightenment (and the attendant forces it may have set in motion) and the early 20th century in Europe? Seems a tremendous amount of psychic energy was concentrated on and in that area during that span of time.
JenniferIf you are referring to Marxism, National Socialism, et al, yes, definitely. The Enlightenment was where man embraced the goal of an earthly paradise - Utopia - instead of planning for it after death. This has fundamentally changed the viewpoint of humanity at almost every level.

Utopian schemes never work - hence the meaning of the term as coined by Thomas More: No Place.

[Jennifer]

I am most definitely not a historian so help me. I get all tangled in the morass that was WWI and I think about high ideals, stupid treaties, the lack of connections between advancing technology and out-dated ideas of warfare. I just don't know how to parce the whole she-bang.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

I am most definitely not a historian so help me. I get all tangled in the morass that was WWI and I think about high ideals, stupid treaties, the lack of connections between advancing technology and out-dated ideas of warfare. I just don't know how to parce the whole she-bang.
JenniferI don't know if there is a good way to parse the First World War and its Part Deux, WW2. One of the most avoidable wars in modern history.

If you want an excellent and highly readable look at the geo-politics and attending arms race leading up to World War One I heartily recommend Robert K. Massie's Dreadnought.

[Jennifer]

Yes, Steve, a good book was what I was thinking of and I will go after "Dreadnought." I am almost finished with the abridged Korda bio of T.E. Lawrence and I must say I have a very different view of the man than from anything else I have read about him. Other biographies seems so fraught, so almost hysterical next to this account. I got hold of a somewhat tepid review of the book that did laud it as highly readable but I think the reviewer was off. Or hadn't read the high-strung stuff that had come my way. This Korda excelled at the actual story of the Arab fighting, some of it was very difficult to hear. I used to blithely throw out the phrase "take no prisoners" but I can't anymore. Now that I have been with Lawrence after the devastation and wholesale slaughter, now that I know what it cost him to give such an order. It's not a joke or a casual reference any longer. I think previous authors must have found pleasure in making Lawrence into an oddity, either masochistic or sexual. It's almost as if the real Lawrence need not show up any longer because they were doing fine with their creation, thank you very much. Korda looks around more frequently at the oddities of Victorian and Edwardian England and puts him in context. Yes, he had eccentricities, found pleasure in things we might not, but in context, context was the thing.
Anyhoo, I shall be sad at the end of the last motorcycle ride. I think I would have liked him very much had I the chance to meet him.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Yes, Steve, a good book was what I was thinking of and I will go after "Dreadnought." I am almost finished with the abridged Korda bio of T.E. Lawrence and I must say I have a very different view of the man than from anything else I have read about him. Other biographies seems so fraught, so almost hysterical next to this account. I got hold of a somewhat tepid review of the book that did laud it as highly readable but I think the reviewer was off. Or hadn't read the high-strung stuff that had come my way. This Korda excelled at the actual story of the Arab fighting, some of it was very difficult to hear. I used to blithely throw out the phrase "take no prisoners" but I can't anymore. Now that I have been with Lawrence after the devastation and wholesale slaughter, now that I know what it cost him to give such an order. It's not a joke or a casual reference any longer. I think previous authors must have found pleasure in making Lawrence into an oddity, either masochistic or sexual. It's almost as if the real Lawrence need not show up any longer because they were doing fine with their creation, thank you very much. Korda looks around more frequently at the oddities of Victorian and Edwardian England and puts him in context. Yes, he had eccentricities, found pleasure in things we might not, but in context, context was the thing.
Anyhoo, I shall be sad at the end of the last motorcycle ride. I think I would have liked him very much had I the chance to meet him.
JenniferJen, when I read The Golden Warrior: The Life and Legend of Lawrence of Arabia by Lawrence James I was bemused to see he had an entire section of the book about The Legend and how much of Lawrence's legend was spread by the man himself; sometimes unconsciously. He was a very complicated man.

[Jennifer]

Jen, when I read The Golden Warrior: The Life and Legend of Lawrence of Arabia by Lawrence James I was bemused to see he had an entire section of the book about The Legend and how much of Lawrence's legend was spread by the man himself; sometimes unconsciously. He was a very complicated man.

You bring out a good point. Lawrence did do a good bit of misdirection. And even Korda has subtly contradicted his accounts. Take for instance, the meeting with Lowell Thomas. Sometimes the time he spent with Lawrence is portrayed as almost invented, but then at another point, he reasons that without Lawrence's help, the kinds of photos and information he got would not have been possible. I do think that later in life, whilst he was in the RAF, he did try to keep a low-profile and the press became rapacious, much like they are today. He often seemed to be his own worst enemy. But I do feel for him. I have just come to the bit where the press is about to discover his illegitimacy...
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

You bring out a good point. Lawrence did do a good bit of misdirection. And even Korda has subtly contradicts his accounts. Take for instance, the meeting with Lowell Thomas. Sometimes the time he spent with Lawrence is portrayed as almost invented, but then at another point, he reasons that without Lawrence's help, the kinds of photos and information he got would not have been possible. I do think that later in life, whilst he was in the RAF, he did try to keep a low-profile and the press became rapacious, much like they are today. He often seemed to be his own worst enemy. But I do feel for him. I have just come to the bit where the press is about to discover his illegitimacy...
JenniferJust imagine what the reaction would have been had the press and public of that time discovered Lawrence was either homosexual or at the very least had homosexual leanings. :eek:

[Jennifer]

Just imagine what the reaction would have been had the press and public of that time discovered Lawrence was either homosexual or at the very least had homosexual leanings. :eek:
You know, that's one thing that Korda has handled very well. I don't think he sees a whole lot of evidence for homosexuality. Sado-masochism, yes, but you would very much appreciate his depiction of what Lawrence went through after Deraa. According to Korda, and I have read this elsewhere, Lawrence was not comfortable at all with almost any sort of physical contact with people. He didn't like to shake hands, nothing. He had in common with G.B. Shaw's wife a tremendous distaste for the whole of sexuality. She and G.B. apparently had what is known as a "white" marriage. No sex. He was free to conduct affairs and they were devoted to each other but her aversion to the whole concept was final. And according to Korda, this aspect of her personality dovetailed perfectly with Lawrence's own feelings. So the event at Deraa was absolutely shattering because he experienced pleasure. Korda says it's one thing to be violated but a very different one to believe you somehow enjoyed it. And Lawrence lived the rest of his life feeling he had failed because of that one tragic event.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

You know, that's one thing that Korda has handled very well. I don't think he sees a whole lot of evidence for homosexuality. Sado-masochism, yes, but you would very much appreciate his depiction of what Lawrence went through after Deraa. According to Korda, and I have read this elsewhere, Lawrence was not comfortable at all with almost any sort of physical contact with people. He didn't like to shake hands, nothing. He had in common with G.B. Shaw's wife a tremendous distaste for the whole of sexuality. She and G.B. apparently had what is known as a "white" marriage. No sex. He was free to conduct affairs and they were devoted to each other but her aversion to the whole concept was final. And according to Korda, this aspect of her personality dovetailed perfectly with Lawrence's own feelings. So the event at Deraa was absolutely shattering because he experienced pleasure. Korda says it's one thing to be violated but a very different one to believe you somehow enjoyed it. And Lawrence lived the rest of his life feeling he had failed because of that one tragic event.I think it's entirely plausible Lawrence never had sex (at least voluntarily as it's rather likely he was raped while captured by the Turks) with a person of either gender. That seems strange in our modern over-sexualized society but was probably fairly common a century ago. But his leanings seem pretty clear.

I am (for example) quite certain my parents never had sex. My three siblings all agree. :D

[Jennifer]

I think it's entirely plausible Lawrence never had sex (at least voluntarily as it's rather likely he was raped while captured by the Turks) with a person of either gender. That seems strange in our modern over-sexualized society but was probably fairly common a century ago. But his leanings seem pretty clear.

I am (for example) quite certain my parents never had sex. My three siblings all agree. :D

Oh it's clear he was raped at Deraa but at what point did he demonstrate his leanings? I have had so much conflicting info, starting with David Lean that I am not sure of anything about his "leanings!" For example, Korda spends a lot of his capital debunking certain assumptions about Lawrence and one of those is that he was a loner. Korda talks about how frequently Lawrence spent his weekends at house parties, with the G.B. Shaws, with his commander's family, all sorts of activity. And he was a prolific correspondent. With all this, if he had any sort of interest one way or the other, how would Korda miss it? Lawrence did have female friends too. Not only did his commander's family adopt him, he spent a great deal of time with the wife of his commander, enough to make others "suggest" something suspicious. The commander roared with laughter. I don't doubt he possessed a lot of odd notions but I get more of an asexual picture than homosexual.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

Not only did his commander's family adopt him, he spent a great deal of time with the wife of his commander, enough to make others "suggest" something suspicious. The commander roared with laughter.You don't think his commander roaring with laughter upon the suggestion Lawrence was tapping his wife isn't a hint the commander thought Lawrence's interests possibly lay (no pun intended) elsewhere?

I don't doubt he possessed a lot of odd notions but I get more of an asexual picture than homosexual.Interests and attraction do not indicate action. I agree he was probably behaviorally asexual.

[Lenore]

I think it's entirely plausible Lawrence never had sex . . . with a person of either gender. That seems strange in our modern over-sexualized society but was probably fairly common a century ago.


Oh, I don't know. If William Manchester is to be believed, upper class Victorians and Edwardians (in contrast to the middle class) were having vast amounts of extra-marital sex.

[SCWillson]

Oh, I don't know. If William Manchester is to be believed, upper class Victorians and Edwardians (in contrast to the middle class) were having vast amounts of extra-marital sex.No doubt. But he also pointed out that it was necessary to be discreet about such things. There were of course plenty of them that were open secrets, such as the Prince of Wales' legendary philandering (including with Churchill's mum). The social consequences of divorce or even separation were enormous.

[Jennifer]

Interests and attraction do not indicate action. I agree he was probably behaviorally asexual.
I admit I am a terrier about some things, but if his behavior says one thing, by what right (I am serious, not posing) do I assume something else? I am quite aware that Korda might not want to see something so are there things he is leaving out? And if you read the passage about the wife and Lawrence, you would get the impression from Korda that the commander also considered Lawrence incapable of any sexual behavior but you are right, apart from context, the idea of homosexual leanings could have been implied.
Jennifer

[Jennifer]

Oh, I don't know. If William Manchester is to be believed, upper class Victorians and Edwardians (in contrast to the middle class) were having vast amounts of extra-marital sex.
I never meant to imply that there was no sex among Victorians. Just that there were some who were so turned off to the idea that they preferred not to engage at all. It had to have been a fairly liberated society if G.B. Shaw's wife understood that he'd have affairs if they weren't going to be intimate. Korda also talks frankly about the problems of illegitimacy so lots and lots of people of all classes were engaging...
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

I admit I am a terrier about some things, but if his behavior says one thing, by what right (I am serious, not posing) do I assume something else? I am quite aware that Korda might not want to see something so are there things he is leaving out? And if you read the passage about the wife and Lawrence, you would get the impression from Korda that the commander also considered Lawrence incapable of any sexual behavior but you are right, apart from context, the idea of homosexual leanings could have been implied.I have not read Korda.

The idea that Lawrence was a latent if perhaps not practicing homosexual was explicit in the book I read. Different biographer; different conclusions.

[Jennifer]

I have not read Korda.

The idea that Lawrence was a latent if perhaps not practicing homosexual was explicit in the book I read. Different biographer; different conclusions.

I think that's what's always bothered me about him. Until this book, I always assumed there was something I didn't know about because that's what everyone thinks. It's like the best secret ever about him. I can not dictate what you might read but if you ever get to this book, I would love to hear your take on how it fits with the ones you've read. Of course we'll never know for sure so I guess I will just have to let it rest.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

I think that's what's always bothered me about him. Until this book, I always assumed there was something I didn't know about because that's what everyone thinks. It's like the best secret ever about him. I can not dictate what you might read but if you ever get to this book, I would love to hear your take on how it fits with the ones you've read. Of course we'll never know for sure so I guess I will just have to let it rest.
JenniferThis was both the first and only book I ever read about Lawrence but it was also the first time I'd ever heard he might have been homosexual. Previous articles and books which discussed him in passing only mention he was eccentric - a colossal understatement. :)

[Jennifer]

This was both the first and only book I ever read about Lawrence but it was also the first time I'd ever heard he might have been homosexual. Previous articles and books which discussed him in passing only mention he was eccentric - a colossal understatement. :)

I knew that Lean painted him that way because he was completely convinced he was. And it's too tempting for others not to follow. I almost wonder if it weren't some kind of whisper campaign. Korda seems to position him squarely within the boundaries of "normal" oddities of his level of society. I just do not know now...
Jennifer

PS It seems Lawrence (after a bit of "googling...") has been co-opted, into the annals of "gay history."

[SCWillson]

I knew that Lean painted him that way because he was completely convinced he was. And it's too tempting for others not to follow. I almost wonder if it weren't some kind of whisper campaign. Korda seems to position him squarely within the boundaries of "normal" oddities of his level of society. I just do not know now...I suppose, barring some utterly anticipated discovery, we'll never know. I thought the author of The Golden Warrior made a pretty convincing case for Lawrence's homosexual leanings. But - and it's an important but - I haven't read a counterargument. That may well be as convincing or even more so.

Since I don't regard homosexuality as a "sin" it's really just just a historical bit of trivia anyway. It doesn't add or detract from Lawrence's accomplishments one iota. He was still an amazing man.

[Jennifer]

Since I don't regard homosexuality as a "sin" it's really just just a historical bit of trivia anyway. It doesn't add or detract from Lawrence's accomplishments one iota. He was still an amazing man.

It's easy in today's society to be free with such wonderful statements as the above, but in context, in the context of Lawrence's life, it wouldn't be so easy. Proper attitudes and correctness aside, I just find all this confusion irritating. If Korda deliberately ignored evidence, I would feel wronged.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

It's easy in today's society to be free with such wonderful statements as the above, but in context, in the context of Lawrence's life, it wouldn't be so easy. Proper attitudes and correctness aside, I just find all this confusion irritating. If Korda deliberately ignored evidence, I would feel wronged.
JenniferWell obviously the consequences for being homosexual were far more negative in Lawrence's time (and still are in significant parts of the modern world). Lawrence had good reasons for obscuring his sexual preferences/leanings (if any).

Maybe if he was around now we'd call him a metrosexual. ;)

[Jennifer]

Well obviously the consequences for being homosexual were far more negative in Lawrence's time (and still are in significant parts of the modern world). Lawrence had good reasons for obscuring his sexual preferences/leanings (if any).

Maybe if he was around now we'd call him a metrosexual. ;)
I think I am going to have to write to Mr. Korda and get his straightforward take on the question. This whole question is partly driven by agendas and that really bothers me. People's lives, how they lived them, that can't be fodder for one side or another.
Jennifer

[Pat Floyd]

I've just read a wonderful book in which Lawrence has a role: Dreamers of the Day, by Mary Doria Russell. Russell says that although her book is fiction, "It was my intent that readers looking for fact not be led far astray." The story is about a woman from Ohio who lost so many family members in the influenza epidemic that she inherited enough money to travel to Egypt. She arrived at the time of the Cairo Conference of 1921 that divided up the Middle East in the manner that has given trouble ever since. Winston Churchill, Gertrude Bell, and T. E. Lawrence were the most prominent people at the conference. Years ago the wisest man I know said that if they had taken Lawrence's recommendations we wouldn't be in the trouble we're in today. This book is engaging and well written. I read all day Saturday and finished it Sunday afternoon.

The sources about Lawrence that Russell likes best aren't available at my library. They are Images of Lawrence, (1988) by Tabachnick and Matheson, "an excellent and concise analysis of the many biographies and opinions of T. E. Lawrence," and T. E. Lawrence by His Friends, (1937) edited by A. W. Lawrence, "in aggregate [the] essays portray a versatile and complex man." From the latter book Russell uses an incident in which a woman speaks of Lawrence's kindness and comfort when she suffered a miscarriage. I have ordered the Korda biography of Lawrence and two others from our library: T. E. Lawrence to His Biographers, Robert Graves and Liddell Hart and Lawrence of Arabia, which is subtitled "the authorized biography," by Jeremy Wilson. From what I've read, in Lawrence's day homosexuality, like extramarital sex among heterosexuals, was not uncommon among the upper classes, was known about, but wasn't openly acknowledged.

Another of Russell's sources I would like to read is Assignment: Churchill, (1955) by Walter H. Thompson, his lifelong bodyguard.

[112233]

Dreamers of the Day happens to be the book I'm listening to at the moment. Having barely survived the trauma of Doria Russell's heart rending "The Sparrow" and "The Children of God" I was hesitant. So far, so good.

[Jennifer]

I was always put off by the swirling debate over Lawrence and I think if you read Michael Korda, you'll find he's not much interested in psychological speculation and I, for one, appreciated his approach and his desire to demystify Lawrence. But the homosexuality question is such a bugging thing that I wanted to see what was available on-line. I found a wonderful World War I website and their article on the question was quite different than I expected.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/telawrence.htm

This is the link for it.
Jennifer

[Pat Floyd]

Jennifer, thank you for the excellent link. The line I like best is "if he was homosexual it wouldn't add or subtract from his legacy." It rightly defines all rape for what it is: an act of abuse, violation, and power over the victim. I have known two gay men who were raped in jail. The experience was no less traumatic for them than it would have been for a heterosexual male--maybe more so. One of them is a long-time friend, and that rape has been a source of lasting damage. Guards knew what was happening and other men cheered on his rapist.

I've read in passing that flogging is a sexual quirk especially favored by the English, but I don't know whether the assertion was based on reliable data. People's relationships bridge a wonderfully wide spectrum from a preference for celibacy to Wilt Chamberlain's claim of 10,000 women. I think it is a mistake to try to fit people into slots or label them as one thing or another. We are all made up of so many different facets that to focus on one or two fails to do justice to the whole person.

[Pat Floyd]

Dreamers of the Day happens to be the book I'm listening to at the moment. Having barely survived the trauma of Doria Russell's heart rending "The Sparrow" and "The Children of God" I was hesitant. So far, so good.

Relax. Dreamers of the Day is virtually trauma free. I've just gotten The Sparrow so I shall be warned. Perhaps I'll try A Thread of Grace first.

[Lenore]

The Sparrow is brilliant but truly heartbreaking, and the sequel, The Children of God, equally brilliant and only slightly less heartbreaking. But aside from everything else that's really good about the books, they illuminate brilliantly (for all us science fiction and space travel fans out there) the complexity and misunderstanding that must be inherent in any "first contact."

[112233]

I failed to add that I consider "The Sparrow" and "The Children of God" along with Ursula LeGuin"s "Left hand of Darkness" among the greatest novels I have read. That wasn't an easy read either.

[Millie]

I'm reading Califia's Daughters for the (gasp) first time. Loving it. Can't wait to finish it and read the discussion. I'd put off buying it from Amazon - I don't think it was ever available here- because I didn't think I'd like it. Bad decision - it's great!

[SCWillson]

I've started Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy by Eric Metaxas, a life of German minister Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who died for his outspoken opposition to Adolf Hitler's regime.

Bonhoeffer thought fighting Hitler was important enough he left left the US in 1939 and returned to Germany. He was executed just before the war in Europe ended.

[jtb1951]

I failed to add that I consider "The Sparrow" and "The Children of God" along with Ursula LeGuin"s "Left hand of Darkness" among the greatest novels I have read. That wasn't an easy read either.

Wow, you are definitely a kindred spirit! I read all of those novels when they were published and was greatly touched and impressed by each. The MDR books were as emotionally wrenching a novel as I have ever read. Her later books are good but not of the same caliber, until one gets to her latest, "Doc", a very gripping novel telling the story of "Doc" Holliday, absent the media-driven mythology of Doc and Wyatt Earp. I have attended book-signing events of hers for her last three novels and she is quite the interesting speaker!

John.

[Jennifer]

I started the "Atterbury Emeralds" today as a car-book. It's read by Edward Petherbridge and sounds the most like Lord Peter (except for some sad sermonizing) that Jill Paton Walsh has ever managed for me. I can't deny that having a familiar Lord Peter voice is comforting. (Ian Carmichael has left this world, alas) And it does do a fabulous job at some intriguing back story. A mystery within a mystery is brewing. The patter isn't sparkling but then this Lord Peter is 60 years old. He's like a very comfy pair of slippers that I am going to put on with relish...
Jennifer
PS AmyLizzie posted a BBC fall season trailer that had the tiniest snippets of the new Sherlock possible...

[Pat Floyd]

I failed to add that I consider "The Sparrow" and "The Children of God" along with Ursula LeGuin"s "Left hand of Darkness" among the greatest novels I have read. That wasn't an easy read either.

A wonderful recommendation! I hold Left Hand of Darkness in very high esteem.

[Pat Floyd]

I've started Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy by Eric Metaxas, a life of German minister Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who died for his outspoken opposition to Adolf Hitler's regime.

Bonhoeffer thought fighting Hitler was important enough he left left the US in 1939 and returned to Germany. He was executed just before the war in Europe ended.

Bonhoeffer was indeed a remarkable and courageous man. Long ago I was moved by his Letters and Papers from Prison, then in 1994 Love Letters from Cell 92 was published. It includes letters written to his fiancee between 1943-45. Bonhoeffer's theology set out in The Cost of Discipleship is rigorous and demanding. I shall be interested in hearing about the Metaxas book.

[Pat Floyd]

I think I am going to have to write to Mr. Korda and get his straightforward take on the question. This whole question is partly driven by agendas and that really bothers me. People's lives, how they lived them, that can't be fodder for one side or another.
Jennifer

I've spent a day and a half with my T. E. Lawrence books, a great deal of it on his correspondence with the poet Robert Graves and the military historian Liddell. Three of my best friends (one deceased) have been gay men and for fifteen years I helped with a church made up almost entirely of gay men. I feel absolutely certain from Lawrence's own words and the words of his friends as well as my experience with gay men that Lawrence had neither heterosexual nor homosexual leanings. His leanings were to aceticism and celibacy long before Deraa. In his own words he regarded coitus with revulsion. Nevertheless, he had a wonderful gift for the love of friendship, for loyalty and affection.

Lawrence was unusual in so many ways. Graves wrote, "Lawrence idealized masculinity, partly perhaps because he knew that he was not conventually masculine himself, in spite of his great physical strength and habitual knight-errantry. I do not mean that he was homosexual--he was not." At the dedication of a memorial to Lawrence Winston Churchill said, "The world looks with some awe upon a man who appears unconcernedly indifferent to home, money, comfort, rank, or even power and fame. The world feels not without a certain apprehension, that here is someone outside its jurisdiction; someone before whom its allurements may be spread in vain; someone strangely enfranchised, untamed, untrammelled by convention, moving independently of the ordinary currents of human action."

Thank you for getting me started on Lawrence. I knew nothing about his life after 1921.

[Jennifer]

Pat,
I am thrilled that you did research today because what you came up with is my exact reaction to everything I had read! And Michael Korda seems to agree in his assessment. It's not that I would be "disappointed" in Lawrence if he were one thing or another. It's just I felt his life was being appropriated on the basis of evidence I could never find. It's so confusing because I know that there are bound to be a great many people in history that I know next to nothing about their sexual preferences and care even less. Lawrence remains such an attractive figure that claiming him for a "side" must be irresistible. Again, thanks for your work today. I too, was glad to learn of all of his life after WWI. He was a much more complex and interesting figure than his participation in the War could have demonstrated alone.
Jennifer

[annie]

As so often on this board, I arrive to post what I am reading & lower the standards.
The Mobile Library: the case of the missing books by Ian Sansom
This book has made me laugh so much and is especially amusing to anyone who knows Northern Ireland / Ulster - a different kettle of fish to Eire. It captures both the bizarre humour of the Northern Irish and the way they can be both down-to-earth & fanciful in the same breath. It also captures the bleak beauty of the landscape, and not a whiff of Oirishry in site.
It's in the Candide mould: a half-Jewish, half-Irish Londoner arrives to become the new librarian at Tumdrum, only to find it closed. The subsequent culture clashes, red herrings and strange happenings are hilarious.

[Jennifer]

"The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie" was a very entertaining mystery! I am sorry I was not able to read along with you all! Flavia would give Mary Russell quite a run for her money! Together they'd be able to rule the world, no doubt! I can't remember when I have enjoyed a book more. I am sorry, I kept waiting for the proverbial shoe to drop where I'd have to admit that I had been taken in, hook, line and sinker and this was really a tremendously ironic raspberry of a story but no! Every word was true to itself, no joke within a joke, no tricks. Just a very good old-fashioned slightly unbelievable rollicking story!
Jennifer

[Strawberry Curls]

Jennifer, the next two books (both with impossibly long and involved names) were just as engaging and Flavia continues to be a delightful narrator. A fourth book (again with the convoluted name) is due out in Nov. My only complaint with the series is the impossible to remember names of each book. LOL ;)

[Jennifer]

Jennifer, the next two books (both with impossibly long and involved names) were just as engaging and Flavia continues to be a delightful narrator. A fourth book (again with the convoluted name) is due out in Nov. My only complaint with the series is the impossible to remember names of each book. LOL ;)
Well if that's the worst we can say about the books, I will try to commit those names to memory!
Jennifer

[Strawberry Curls]

Well if that's the worst we can say about the books, I will try to commit those names to memory!
JenniferAnd I managed to say it in an incorrect and broken sentance. :eek: Make that:

My only complaint with the series is that it is impossible to remember the names of each book.

[Jennifer]

And I managed to say it in an incorrect and broken sentance. :eek: Make that:

My only complaint with the series is that it is impossible to remember the names of each book.
"The Weed That Strings the Hangman's Bag" is a mouthful! For some reason, the first "The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie" was much easier... Just now, a theater star is asking 11 year old Flavia for a cig....
Jennifer

[Strawberry Curls]

"The Weed That Strings the Hangman's Bag" is a mouthful! For some reason, the first "The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie" was much easier.
JenniferI agree and "A Red-Herring Without Mustard" is one I simply can't remember. November's book "I Am Half-Sick of Shadows," is a bit easier, but still odd. Where does he get these titles?

[Jennifer]

I agree and "A Red-Herring Without Mustard" is one I simply can't remember. November's book "I Am Half-Sick of Shadows," is a bit easier, but still odd. Where does he get these titles?
I think the titles pay for themselves! Look at us! We have posted about them numerous times and I think I can remember them better after all this reinforcement. (Thinking to self "The weed that strings the hangman's bag...the weed that strings the hangman's bag.....")
Jennifer

[Pat Floyd]

From time to time we have discussed what happens when a writer has a series that goes on for great lengths. Some writers from the beginning continue to write essentially the same book. I read all of Katherine Hall Page's books and enjoy them, but in memory I can't separate one from the other and I've never reread one. Robert Parker's Spenser books became novellas toward the end, and some writers clearly run out of ideas and energy. But some writers grow stronger.

During August I reread the 27 books in Marcia Muller's Sharon McCone series with great enjoyment. In my opinion her first five books were good mysteries, but not exceptional. Her next seven grow in complexity, interest, and depth and introduce some contempory issues: the problems of immigrants in There's Nothing to Be Afraid Of, the lasting damage of the Viet Nam war in Trophies and Dead Things, and ecological concerns in Where Echoes Live. IMO her last 15 books beginning with Wolf in the Shadows move to the level of fully developed novels that include crime to be investigated. Four of these books I don't care for and five are among all-time favorites.

In analysing why for me this long series is successful, I identify the following factors:
--Muller expands the cast of characters I like and care about: Sharon's large family, her agency staff, their friends, cats, and horses
--the time frame is roughly contemporary, reflecting social changes and events and the aging of characters
--the characters add new skills, and the turn of events can be totally unexpected
--after trial and error Sharon finds her true mate in Hy Ripinsky
--sometimes relevant social issues--and often ethical issues--are tackled
--as in life, there is some tragedy and some things for which there is no resolution
--I love the San Francisco setting and the fact that I can find almost every place mentioned on a map of San Francisco.

I know that at one point Marcia Muller needed to write other things before her satisfying return to Sharon McCone.

Recently Laurie spoke of how solemn her last two books are. I have a love/hate relationship with The Language of Bees that makes me reluctant to try to evaluate it, but I think The God of the Hive is one of her best.

[Strawberry Curls]

Pat, as always a brilliant evaluation of why some long running series work and some do not.
Recently Laurie spoke of how solemn her last two books are. I have a love/hate relationship with The Language of Bees that makes me reluctant to try to evaluate it, but I think The God of the Hive is one of her best.I think you are going to love "Pirate King." Laurie went for something different, or at the least, as she puts it, a return to the more whimsical nature of the Russell/Holmes books. I don't happen to agree that the Russell/Holmes series was ever whimsical (She may have created the character of Russell and extrapolated a Holmes for the 20th century, but those of us who love the books to the point of obsession embrace the lighthearted moments, but always take each memoir very, very seriously) but, I do think there are some brilliantly funny moments in every book. Multiply that by a whole book and you have "Pirate King." Russell's forward says she wouldn't believe the story if she hadn't lived it, and from the next turn of the page...you are off on a wonderful, exciting, funny, silly, deadly serious, absurd, at times confusing (keep the list of characters in the beginning of the book handy), and also nail-biting adventure with sharp, witty and quintessentially Russell and Holmes dialog. But that is just my opinion.:D

[Pat Floyd]

Alice, I've read the ARC and I quite agree. I can hardly wait for my very own copy to arrive.

[Jennifer]

Alice, I've read the ARC and I quite agree. I can hardly wait for my very own copy to arrive.
As per usual, I am not in the first wave of "Pirate King" holds at the library. Probably sometime next week. But I did want to say happily enough, that "The Attenbury Emeralds" is progressing very nicely! Edward Petherbridge does sound like a Lord Peter I am very fond of, but somehow as well, I am liking Jill Paton Walsh's way with a mystery. There as still a few things that seem out of place but nothing that is detracting terribly from the good mystery that she has written.
Jennifer

[annie]

As you know, Pat, I am a huge fan of Marcia Muller's Sharon McCone series. I first read them in the early 80s (so not too far out of the time-line) when The Women's Press (sadly defunct) here began publishing them. They published a lot of women's detective fiction, including the first Val McDermid.
I totally agree with your analysis, and to my mind Listen to the Silence is a superb book about identity. I am only sad that I can't recommend it to friends here, because you really need to know Sharon to appreciate that book.
I would add that Sharon never stands on a soap-box, doesn't judge people the way VI & Kinsey do.
I have never understood why US contemporaries are feted here, whilst Marcia & Sharon are side-lined; someone told me it's about publishing deals.

[Pat Floyd]

As you know, Pat, I am a huge fan of Marcia Muller's Sharon McCone series. I first read them in the early 80s (so not too far out of the time-line) when The Women's Press (sadly defunct) here began publishing them. They published a lot of women's detective fiction, including the first Val McDermid.
I totally agree with your analysis, and to my mind Listen to the Silence is a superb book about identity. I am only sad that I can't recommend it to friends here, because you really need to know Sharon to appreciate that book.
I would add that Sharon never stands on a soap-box, doesn't judge people the way VI & Kinsey do.
I have never understood why US contemporaries are feted here, whilst Marcia & Sharon are side-lined; someone told me it's about publishing deals.

Annie, Listen to the Silence is one of my five all-time favorite Muller books.

[SCWillson]

I've finished the book on Dietrich Bonhoeffer I mentioned a few days ago. Excellent book about an amazing man.

Next up: The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arent; which discusses both Hitler's Third Reich and Stalin's Soviet Union.

[Jennifer]

I just finished "The Attenbury Emeralds" by Jill Paton Walsh. I don't know if it's in the works, but I think we should read this one as a group. It's a very good mystery, lots of twists and turns and because of when it's set (1950) JPW weaves in the difficulties the aristocracy faced in Post War England. There's a maharajah for good luck, and only one moment where I could have helped her with the backstory (Persian was the court language of the Mughal empire but no one seems to have told her that!)
It's a good book with an opportunity for lots of history, lots of discussion on our usually discussive parts...
Jennifer

[annie]

ITA Jennifer!
I though "Emeralds" the best of JPW's Lord Peters, probably because she got free reign, with no incomplete work to finish, or outline notes to follow.

Is "Persian" a language? I know that the language of modern-day Iran is Farsi, and that it is audibly almost the same as Gujerati, but with a different script.

[Jennifer]

ITA Jennifer!
I though "Emeralds" the best of JPW's Lord Peters, probably because she got free reign, with no incomplete work to finish, or outline notes to follow.

Is "Persian" a language? I know that the language of modern-day Iran is Farsi, and that it is audibly almost the same as Gujerati, but with a different script.
I am quite overwhelmed by your last paragraph. Persian is classic Farsi. I studied it in college. It's written in Arabic script but is much more along the lines of an Indo-European language in areas such as conjugation. In my humble opinion, much easier than Arabic (which I also studied so I am not speaking of whence I know not...) but just about as beautiful a language as you could learn. Now my dear, I never heard Persian compared to Gujerati. I would say Gujerati and Hindi are extremely close but I would not be familiar with Gujerati/Persian comparisons...

I like your reasoning for why "Emeralds" is JPW's most successful attempt at Lord Peter. I didn't expect to like it, given how little I liked the first two, and was very pleasantly surprised. No one can duplicate DLS's way with words but this time, Jill Paton Walsh seemed to have be quite comfortable with her Lord Peter and Harriet.
Jennifer

PS I was so curious at the comparison of Persian and Gujerati that I had to look it up and found that Gujerati Parsis have a heavily Persianized version of Gujerati due to Persian being their original language. Apparently Parsis, originally from Iran, has something of a diaspora and many landed in India. Freddy Mercury was a Parsi I believe. SO yes, Annie, there is a connection but it's not "normal" Gujerati which I am somewhat familiar with. That is much closer to Hindi. Anyone just interested in language for the fun of it could live in India and never grow bored for a moment with the unceasing varieties and dialects!
Jennifer

[Pat Floyd]

ITA Jennifer!
I though "Emeralds" the best of JPW's Lord Peters, probably because she got free reign, with no incomplete work to finish, or outline notes to follow.


I quite agree.

[annie]

I am quite overwhelmed by your last paragraph. Persian is classic Farsi. I studied it in college. It's written in Arabic script but is much more along the lines of an Indo-European language in areas such as conjugation. In my humble opinion, much easier than Arabic (which I also studied so I am not speaking of whence I know not...) but just about as beautiful a language as you could learn. Now my dear, I never heard Persian compared to Gujerati. I would say Gujerati and Hindi are extremely close but I would not be familiar with Gujerati/Persian comparisons...

I like your reasoning for why "Emeralds" is JPW's most successful attempt at Lord Peter. I didn't expect to like it, given how little I liked the first two, and was very pleasantly surprised. No one can duplicate DLS's way with words but this time, Jill Paton Walsh seemed to have be quite comfortable with her Lord Peter and Harriet.
Jennifer

PS I was so curious at the comparison of Persian and Gujerati that I had to look it up and found that Gujerati Parsis have a heavily Persianized version of Gujerati due to Persian being their original language. Apparently Parsis, originally from Iran, has something of a diaspora and many landed in India. Freddy Mercury was a Parsi I believe. SO yes, Annie, there is a connection but it's not "normal" Gujerati which I am somewhat familiar with. That is much closer to Hindi. Anyone just interested in language for the fun of it could live in India and never grow bored for a moment with the unceasing varieties and dialects!
Jennifer

Well, Jennifer, you may "know" me well enough by now to realise that I am a practical lass, not an intellectual. So the reason I know about the Gujerati/Farsi & Zoroastrian/Parsi connection is because I worked in one of the most diverse towns in the UK. We were always looking for ways to communicate, for common ground and that is something I picked up along with other oddities.
Something that fascinated me was that as a child I was taught to count to 10 in "gypsy language" (Roma in its pure form, most gypsies speak a sort of hybrid) and when I learned to count in Urdu (phonetically similar to Hindi) I found the numbers the same.

[Jennifer]

Well, Jennifer, you may "know" me well enough by now to realise that I am a practical lass, not an intellectual. So the reason I know about the Gujerati/Farsi & Zoroastrian/Parsi connection is because I worked in one of the most diverse towns in the UK. We were always looking for ways to communicate, for common ground and that is something I picked up along with other oddities.
Something that fascinated me was that as a child I was taught to count to 10 in "gypsy language" (Roma in its pure form, most gypsies speak a sort of hybrid) and when I learned to count in Urdu (phonetically similar to Hindi) I found the numbers the same.

Annie,
I will not hear of self-deprecation on your part! Practical and intellectual you are and how interesting and confirming that Roma and Urdu are the same since I just learned a few weeks ago that Gypsies indeed came from India! Can we find some book or some way to read about this whole fascinating idea here at the VBC?? I'd love it!
Jennifer

[annie]

Indeed, Gypsies did come from India. through the Middle East & Egypt (where the name comes from) and up through Spain (where there is a large settled Gypsy community).
I have read some books about their history in the past - I have worked with Gypsies & travellers, and on my mother's side am supposedly descended (with no real evidence other than being olive skinned, dark-haired & a love of bright clothing!) I DO NOT count my mother's supposed gift of "the sight" which was more irritating than accurate.
I can't think of any books at the moment - although one of the Maisie Dobbs books (I think An Incomplete Revenge) features Gypsies and is beautifully written. The scene at the end, where Maisie puts Django Reinhardt's disc on her new record player and dances to it is one of my favourites - partly because I heard his music first on my grandparents' old wind-up!

[AmyLizzie]

I'm trying my hardest to download the audible version of Pirate King but my bloody brother has been faffing about on my laptop and now it won't connect to the internet! GRRRRR (Rant over...)

[annie]

shall I put a gypsy curse on him?

[annie]

Oh, I seem to have put the curse on the discussion instead!
I have just read "Aristotle Detective" by Margaret Doody - who obviously has a decent knowledge of the classics.Good plot & characters - a bit overlong I thought, but a fine conclusion.

[Jennifer]

Oh, I seem to have put the curse on the discussion instead!
I have just read "Aristotle Detective" by Margaret Doody - who obviously has a decent knowledge of the classics.Good plot & characters - a bit overlong I thought, but a fine conclusion.
I haven't heard of that book. Tell us a bit about it...
Jennifer
PS "The Attenbury Emeralds" was so good I listened to it again. As per usual, picked up a lot of details I had missed in my desire to get to the denouement....But JPW did a great job and I hope she gets the chance to have another go...I do think having Edward Petherbridge to read was a stroke of genius.

[Pat Floyd]

This week I've read Louise Penny's new novel, A Trick of the Light, and really loved it. It's my favorite of her books so far. This one is set in Three Pines, and there are interesting developments, especially in the lives of Clara and Peter and things are brewing with Beauvoir.

[annie]

Well, a rather nice bloke called Stephanos, who is having a bit of a rough time with his family, then finds his cousin accused of murder. As this cousin is in exile for another crime, Stephanos has to conduct his defence, and turns to his old teacher, Aristotle for help. We get a lot about Greek domestic customs, and Greek law. The actual detection - tracking down alibis, seeking motives, uncovering twists, is classic detective novel stuff.

I have foolishly not only joined the village book club, but taken on a challenge at Goodreads (I blame Sheri....). It's called "Around the World in 80 Books" and the idea is in one year to read books from 80 different countries. Exactly how a country is defined is left rather loose: I am definitely counting all the countries of the British Isles as separate! some organised souls are travelling purposefully, I am flitting about. This is my journey since August 17th:
Scotland: An Inspector's Daughter by Alanna Knight (I nipped back since with the latest Dandy Gilver as well)
Finland: The Summer Book by Tove Jansson (creator of the Moomins - are they known in the US?)
Italy (Illyria): 13th Night (thanks to Pat)
France: Murder in Belleville by Cara Black
N. Ireland (Ulster): The Mobile Library by Ian Sansome
Mexico: Emerald by Elisabeth Luard (which covers a lot of others as well)
Turkey: The Bellini Card by Jason Goodwin
Greece: as above.
So I have covered 10% in a month

[SCWillson]

I've started The House of Rothschild: Money’s Prophets 1798-1848 by Niall Ferguson. This is the first half of a 2 volume set but I have not yet decided whether I'll buy the second half.

[AmyLizzie]

I'm still working my way through books on Welsh Druids and Celtic Christianity..intersting stuff for my MA assignment entitled 'Discuss in detail the religious beliefs of the Ancient Celts, paying particular attention to the role of the Druid.' :S

[Jennifer]

AmyLizzie,
I don't know much about Druid beliefs. Is there a possible thumbnail sketch in you???
Jennifer

[Lenore]

AmyLizzie,
I don't know much about Druid beliefs. Is there a possible thumbnail sketch in you???
Jennifer

Second that request.

[Pat Floyd]

AmyLizzie,
I don't know much about Druid beliefs. Is there a possible thumbnail sketch in you???
Jennifer

I would be interested too and in any especially good sources.

As far as wild conspiracy theories go, one of the most outlandish I've ever encountered is the idea that Druids are conspiring to take over America. When I was an editor of children's Sunday school materials in the 1970s, I think it was, we had a letter saying that our curriculum was being infiltrated by Druids. They thought we were probably innocent of what was happening, but they sent a comic book showing how Druids were infiltrating a police department and a city council. It wasn't clear to me what dread things the Druids were going to do when they ruled the world.

[AmyLizzie]

Lol! Pat that is funny, I'm not sure what they'd do either?! Sacrifice a few goats maybe?? :D

I'll defninitely put something together when I've finished going through the research and I'm a bit clearer in my own head what I'm trying to say! Watch this space!

[SCWillson]

Starting In the Garden of Beasts: Love, Terror, and an American Family in Hitler's Berlin by Erik Larson.

This will be the third book by Larsen I have read; the other two being Thunderstruck and Devil In the White City, both of which I can highly recommend.

[Jennifer]

Starting In the Garden of Beasts: Love, Terror, and an American Family in Hitler's Berlin by Erik Larsen.

This will be the third book by Larsen I have read; the other two being Thunderstruck and Devil In the White City, both of which I can highly recommend.
I saw him talking about this on "Booknotes" and while it didn't seem exactly to the point about Nazi Germany, sort of refracted, and perhaps a little more gossipy than I would be comfortable with concerning Nazi Germany, I too can attest to his high reputation. I read "Thunderstruck" and was totally enthralled.
Jennifer
PS I just watched an incredible biography of John Paul II and was struck all anew at the evil that for a time, ran away with a good bit of civilization...

[SCWillson]

I saw him talking about this on "Booknotes" and while it didn't seem exactly to the point about Nazi Germany, sort of refracted, and perhaps a little more gossipy than I would be comfortable with concerning Nazi Germany, I too can attest to his high reputation. I read "Thunderstruck" and was totally enthralled.I'll have to read it before I can comment on its style but as you know my reading on Nazi Germany is quite extensive and it might be a bit relaxing to read a "popular" book about the subject. I so seldom get to read bestsellers. :)

PS I just watched an incredible biography of John Paul II and was struck all anew at the evil that for a time, ran away with a good bit of civilization...JPII certainly qualifies as a genuine hero both against the Nazis and communists oppressing Eastern Europe. My admiration for him is no doubt influenced by the fact my maternal grandmother was born in Poland (when there was no such place on the map). I'd like to read a good balanced biography of him but it's hard to find biographies of such popular icons without them being either a hagiography or a hatchet job.

[Jennifer]

I'll have to read it before I can comment on its style but as you know my reading on Nazi Germany is quite extensive and it might be a bit relaxing to read a "popular" book about the subject. I so seldom get to read bestsellers. :)

JPII certainly qualifies as a genuine hero both against the Nazis and communists oppressing Eastern Europe. My admiration for him is no doubt influenced by the fact my maternal grandmother was born in Poland (when there was no such place on the map). I'd like to read a good balanced biography of him but it's hard to find biographies of such popular icons without them being either a hagiography or a hatchet job.

I have no doubt that there's plenty of room for Larsen's book, but after seeing the tragedies inflicted on Karol Wojtyla's Poland, Jews and non, it's scary to think of the Nazis as having normal chatty, gossipy kind of lives. About a decently balanced bio, let me make some inquiries because I too want something that is not simply a glowing appreciation. The film I watched was interesting. It starts at age 19 and did a fine job of portraying him as very human, very normal boy of that age. Of course when confronted with the Nazis, he asks the big questions we all would. And the film did a great job of showing how he developed, how powerful intellect he possessed (the previous sentence shows what happens to your brain when you try to write, cook dinner and iron shirts at the same time...). But a written biography would be the ideal so I will seek recommendations.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

I have no doubt that there's plenty of room for Larsen's book, but after seeing the tragedies inflicted on Karol Wojtyla's Poland, Jews and non, it's scary to think of the Nazis as having normal chatty, gossipy kind of lives.That is precisely what makes the Nazis so frightening: their ordinariness. In many ways they were no terrifyingly normal; in others they were unspeakably twisted.

About a decently balanced bio, let me make some inquiries because I too want something that is not simply a glowing appreciation. The film I watched was interesting. It starts at age 19 and did a fine job of portraying him as very human, very normal boy of that age. Of course when confronted with the Nazis, he asks the big questions we all would. And the film did a great job of showing how he developed, how powerful intellect he possessed. But a written biography would be the ideal so I will seek recommendations.Excellent. I would appreciate a recommendation.

What was the name of the film you saw?

[Lenore]

My husband just started the Larsen book. I'm wait-listed for the library's audio version (as usual). I read (listened to) Devil in the White City and thought it well-written, but I found the descriptions of the deaths of the victims so gruesome that the book gave me the creeps.

[Pat Floyd]

That is precisely what makes the Nazis so frightening: their ordinariness. In many ways they were no terrifyingly normal; in others they were unspeakably twisted.

Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil speaks to this point, showing the devastation of evil that begins as thoughtlessness: following orders and/or going along with popular opinion with no regard for the suffering it inflicts or the destruction it brings about.

[SCWillson]

Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil speaks to this point, showing the devastation of evil that begins as thoughtlessness: following orders and/or going along with popular opinion with no regard for the suffering it inflicts or the destruction it brings about.I'm just finishing Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism.

The similarities between Nazi Germany and Stalin's USSR are far greater than their differences.

[Jennifer]

What was the name of the film you saw?
It's called "Karol: A man who became pope." I think the film speaks to me because it does a wonderful job of making JPII real. Not a white light or an angel. And it does not gloss over the agonies of that time, how they affected him. There's a photo taken in the beginning of the film of Wojtyla and his school friends and by the middle of the film, only he and one other person are still surviving. I knew nothing, next to nothing about his early life and this was like looking through a very descriptive photo album. And I think more importantly, it makes me want to read about him.
I have put out requests from more learned than me for good biographies. Will keep you posted.
Jennifer
PS Another thing I really liked about the film was that a great many of the actors were Polish.

[SCWillson]

It's called "Karol: A man who became pope." I think the film speaks to me because it does a wonderful job of making JPII real. Not a white light or an angel. And it does not gloss over the agonies of that time, how they affected him. There's a photo taken in the beginning of the film of Wojtyla and his school friends and by the middle of the film, only he and one other person are still surviving. I knew nothing, next to nothing about his early life and this was like looking through a very descriptive photo album. And I think more importantly, it makes me want to read about him.
I have put out requests from more learned than me for good biographies. Will keep you posted.
Jennifer
PS Another thing I really liked about the film was that a great many of the actors were Polish.I read about a third of In the Garden of Beasts this morning. It is quite different from most of the books on Nazi Germany I've read because it is on such a small scale. We're talking about a single American family (the American Ambassador to Germany, William Dodd) residing in Berlin for a year and a half while the Nazis consolidate their power in Germany and begin transforming it into a totalitarian state.

It's one thing to read in histories about Jews being beaten on the streets; it's quite another thing when the US ambassador's children actually witness such attacks personally.

[Jennifer]

I read about a third of In the Garden of Beasts this morning. It is quite different from most of the books on Nazi Germany I've read because it is on such a small scale. We're talking about a single American family (the American Ambassador to Germany, William Dodd) residing in Berlin for a year and a half while the Nazis consolidate their power in Germany and begin transforming it into a totalitarian state.

It's one thing to read in histories about Jews being beaten on the streets; it's quite another thing when the US ambassador's children actually witness such attacks personally.
That's kind of how it felt in that movie I mentioned. You get involved in the life of the person and then you see him seeing all these atrocities. And how basically they all felt it could have been any of them at any given time. What did the American kids make of it all? After all, weren't there Americans back home denying that any such thing was going on?
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

That's kind of how it felt in that movie I mentioned. You get involved in the life of the person and then you see him seeing all these atrocities. And how basically they all felt it could have been any of them at any given time. What did the American kids make of it all? After all, weren't there Americans back home denying that any such thing was going on?The general reaction seemed to be that such cases were exaggerated and in many cases were simply not believed. After all "no civilized people could behave that way." Or "it's just exuberance."

Wrong. :(

The movie is available as a DVD from Netflix but I don't have that portion of the Netflix service anymore so I'll just have to hope it goes to streaming in the near future.

[Jennifer]

Hey there,
I got my copy at the library here. Do you use the public library where you live? I recommend it highly. Netflix really did a number on people when they divided their services and in effect, doubled the price. We still had the old deal for the summer and then cancelled. I know people can't do without it, it is so much more simple than trudging off to the library, but I already pay for the library! (Original cheapo, here...)

And I was and am continually amazed at the Americans that argued that such things couldn't be happening and came perilously close to saying that if it were happening, perhaps the Jews, well...It gets uglier and uglier at that point.
Jennifer

[Lenore]

And I was and am continually amazed at the Americans that argued that such things couldn't be happening and came perilously close to saying that if it were happening, perhaps the Jews, well...It gets uglier and uglier at that point.


And don't think it's not still happening. Jews in Malmö, Sweden, are leaving in droves because they are being attacked in the streets, and the mayor says they bring it on themselves by "not distancing themselves" from Israel. See, e.g., http://tinyurl.com/5u8bb33

[Jennifer]

Lenore,
I was not aware of this persecution in Sweden. I can't think how we can believe we have come so far when things like this are still happening. I am sure you have heard about Coptic Christians in Iraq, how they are leaving because of persecution as well. And to explain it as "bringing it on themselves" boggles the mind...
Jennifer

[Lenore]

I am sure you have heard about Coptic Christians in Iraq, how they are leaving because of persecution as well.

And in Egypt: http://tinyurl.com/5rbfpqp

[Jennifer]

And in Egypt: http://tinyurl.com/5rbfpqp
It seems that the "Spring" wasn't for everyone. "Some animals are more equal than others..."
Jennifer

[russellholmes]

Hi, everyone!
I'm fishing for responses from as many of our members as possible! Very simply, what book (or books) are you in the midst of reading? I want to make this as non-threatening as possible for those who normally might be a little reluctant to post, so just a title and author is great as a response. (If you wish to be more verbose, try to keep it to under five pages:p ) Please join in; we are family (in a manner of speaking:) )

I'll start: Map of Dreams by M. Rickert

Ego diligo libri!

John.

Pirate King and Heat Rises by Richard Castle :) :)

[jtb1951]

Pirate King and Heat Rises by Richard Castle:):)

Thank you for sharing!

John.

[SCWillson]

Starting Revel, Riot, and Rebellion: Popular Politics and Culture in England 1603-1660 by David Underdown.

[Jennifer]

You all read such wonderful scholarly texts... I am reading Hunt for Red October with my son. I am listening, he is reading. It's working well. I am enjoying it, it's not my usual cuppa but the prose is nice, masculine, muscular, not many wasted words. And the story is fun if really outdated. Just listening to what must have been really jazzy computer descriptions strikes even me as so cute. A 64 bit computer! Wow! It's sort of my son's first adult level book. Hunger Games not withstanding...So I thought it would be fun to venture with him. So far the bad language has been remarkably appropriate and restrained. Mostly it's the strategic stuff, later Soviet verisimilitude and all about subs that is engrossing.
Jennifer

[Lenore]

If your son enjoys Red October, he might enjoy Clancy's second book, Red Storm Rising. It's written in much the same style, in short, manageable chapters. (I read it while nursing my newborn twins, because the style made it easy to put down and pick up again.) Personally, I think Clancy's later books are much inferior, and I stopped reading them after one or two more, but I think fans of the first book generally enjoy the second.

[Jennifer]

If your son enjoys Red October, he might enjoy Clancy's second book, Red Storm Rising. It's written in much the same style, in short, manageable chapters. (I read it while nursing my newborn twins, because the style made it easy to put down and pick up again.) Personally, I think Clancy's later books are much inferior, and I stopped reading them after one or two more, but I think fans of the first book generally enjoy the second.
Thanks for the tip. He said with any luck he'd have enough Clancy books to read all through high school (some books are assigned, some are the kids' choice...)
I'll tell him.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

You all read such wonderful scholarly texts... I am reading Hunt for Red October with my son. I am listening, he is reading. It's working well. I am enjoying it, it's not my usual cuppa but the prose is nice, masculine, muscular, not many wasted words. And the story is fun if really outdated. Just listening to what must have been really jazzy computer descriptions strikes even me as so cute. A 64 bit computer! Wow! It's sort of my son's first adult level book. Hunger Games not withstanding...So I thought it would be fun to venture with him. So far the bad language has been remarkably appropriate and restrained. Mostly it's the strategic stuff, later Soviet verisimilitude and all about subs that is engrossing.While I've enjoyed many of Clancy's early books, my friend David served 4 years on nuclear missile subs and told me sub crews used to laugh at all the techical mistakes in The Hunt for Red October - both the book and the film. It's still a fun yarn for laymen. :)

[Jennifer]

While I've enjoyed many of Clancy's early books, my friend David served 4 years on nuclear missile subs and told me sub crews used to laugh at all the techical mistakes in The Hunt for Red October - both the book and the film. It's still a fun yarn for laymen. :)
I'll have to pass that info along to my son. He has a couple of sub "games" and has enjoyed learning about WWII from them. He is as likely to be the head of a German sub as an American which somehow struck me as not quite right! But learning the subs overcomes any nationalist limitations...
Jennifer

[annie]

I have just read The Crossing Place by Elly Griffiths, a detective story featuring an archaeologist in Norfolk. Wonderful sense of place and quite a decent plot (with one rather unbelievable bit, you can't have it all). only thing is: it is written entirely in the present tense "Ruth is drinking a glass of wine, she looks at........".
I have read books with the odd chapter in the present tense for dramatic effect, but an entire novel takes some getting used to. I almost gave up, but the main character is so likeable, I kept wanting a resolution, so i ploughed on to the end. By then I was used to it!
Anyone with an opinion about the use of the present text in novels?

[Jennifer]

I have read books with the odd chapter in the present tense for dramatic effect, but an entire novel takes some getting used to. I almost gave up, but the main character is so likeable, I kept wanting a resolution, so i ploughed on to the end. By then I was used to it!
Anyone with an opinion about the use of the present text in novels?
Closest I have come to an alternative form of novel-writing is a couple of novels written all in a corporate voice. Ayn Rand's "Anthem" which if you know Ayn Rand the best thing I can say is that it was short. And a wonderful book called "The Ladies' Axillary" by Tova Mirvis. (Lenore, do you know this book and author?) She is writing about an Orthodox Community in Memphis, (I believe that was the town...) and as a device, it is quite startling. Not exactly Steppford Wives, but when she writes that "we had the Shabbas dinner ready" you know she means every home in that community...
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

I'll have to pass that info along to my son. He has a couple of sub "games" and has enjoyed learning about WWII from them. He is as likely to be the head of a German sub as an American which somehow struck me as not quite right! But learning the subs overcomes any nationalist limitations...Don't get me wrong - Despite its technical flaws The Hunt for Red October was de rigueur reading amongst American submariners. Clancy had the virtual status of a demigod among the submarine community.

I think everybody likes seeing themselves portrayed as competent heroes (as you can see, even the Soviet bad guys in THfRO are skilled). :)

[Jennifer]

Don't get me wrong - Despite its technical flaws The Hunt for Red October was de rigueur reading amongst American submariners. Clancy had the virtual status of a demigod among the submarine community.

I think everybody likes seeing themselves portrayed as competent heroes (as you can see, even the Soviet bad guys in THfRO are skilled). :)

Well that's nice to hear because he is enjoying it all. I don't think he knew there were such "masculine" topics for novels.
Jennifer

[Pat Floyd]

I have just read The Crossing Place by Elly Griffiths, a detective story featuring an archaeologist in Norfolk. Wonderful sense of place and quite a decent plot (with one rather unbelievable bit, you can't have it all). only thing is: it is written entirely in the present tense "Ruth is drinking a glass of wine, she looks at........".
Anyone with an opinion about the use of the present text in novels?

I've just requested this book from our library. Will let you know what I think. Last night in editing a paper for a student I assist, I struggled with a mixture of past tense and historical present--a different kind of problem.

Here's a question for those who like audiobooks. When I read, I always see what's happening in my mind's eye. I just tried my first book on CD, and I couldn't see a thing. My hearing is not the best, and when one becomes hard of hearing the speed of speech is often a greater problem than the volume. Do the rest of you see the scenes unfolding as you listen? Is the problem my hearing?

[KarenB]

When I read, I always see what's happening in my mind's eye. I just tried my first book on CD, and I couldn't see a thing. My hearing is not the best, and when one becomes hard of hearing the speed of speech is often a greater problem than the volume. Do the rest of you see the scenes unfolding as you listen? Is the problem my hearing? I'm not sure it's your hearing, Pat. I find it very irritating to listen to books. I have trouble paying attention and it goes SO SLOWLY! I read very quickly and am absorbed into the book when I read, but that doesn't happen for me when I listen. Odd, because I love to read aloud to an audience. It may be a learning style difference.

[Jennifer]

I got hooked on books on tape/cd when Harry Potter became known to my daughter and me. The reader was so completely masterful at interpreting the characters that it was like sitting at a campfire and having someone spin an amazing yarn so yes, I had all the scenes in my head. If your hearing is not good, I can see how audio books would be difficult. I also listen while I am working, both at home and the library and I have been able to listen to a great many wonderful books that way. Sometimes I zone out, and that's when I know that I am not enthralled with the story. Most of the time though I am lucky and love what I am listening to. I understand that reading is faster but audio books keep me company working and I think that's somehow a different experience from actual sitting down reading.
Jennifer

[Jennifer]

Same problem, I tend to tune them out. I find I have to be in a controlled environment - like walking with headphones on - where I cannot hear myself speak to pay attention to it. Listening even on the car radio my mind tends to wander.

I think I tune out better than most people so that part of it has never been difficult. I do wish I could turn the player off faster when people start to talk to me and don't realize that those things hanging from my ears preclude me hearing them!
Jennifer

[annie]

I can enjoy certain audio books, but not novels. For a couple of years, we had a lot of car journeys, and listened to humourous books, especially Bill Bryson (informative AND funny).
We would often use audio books on journeys when the children were young, and there were some books (again, often funny ones) that seemed very suited to that format.
Yes, I do visualise them, and that is why, when I am driving, I mostly listen to the radio or music. But I don't like driving much, and love to be a passenger, enjoying the books chosen by dh (the rule is of course, driver's choice).

[Jennifer]

I know to each his own. I guess I love to be read to! I can think of so many amazing books I might never have "read" had I not listened to them. I remember the day I came across "Howard's End" and remembered the famous quotation "Only connect." I had been assigned the novel in a class about the Bloomsbury Circle (yes, we really do have such classes in our university English Departments!) and in a slacker frame of mind, I never read it! I decided I'd listen to the book just so I could hear "Only connect" in context. Boy was I surprised! And thoroughly pleased. I couldn't imagine how a man could write from a woman's point of view so convincingly. It was quite a feat and I have listened to the book more than once because it was so good, so true and in its way, so humbling. But audio books aren't for everyone. Thank goodness we have a choice.
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

I used to enjoy listening to Tony Hillerman mysteries 15 or so years ago when I drove a long-range taxi for Southern Pacific. These runs often took me from El Paso to Tuscon, Tucumcari, or beyond Alpine TX into areas with poor radio reception, so the audio books were a good way to fight driving fatigue and kill 3 or so hours.

There are too many distractions for me to listen when I'm at home or at work.

[AmyLizzie]

Just finished reading 'Barefoot on Baker Street' it started off ok but then it was just awful! This woman runs away from the workhouse after killing the man who rapes her, she then gets involved with Moriarty and marries him. She gets pregnant but he forces her to have an abortion. She runs away and has an affair with Holmes who then 'dies' at Reichenbach and she ends up marrying Dr Watson! (Sorry for anyone reading it who didn't want to know the end!) Farcical isn't the word, now don't get me wrong I love a bit of Holmes romance but the author just seemed to want her work her way through the characters! Awful and now I'm depressed :( Anyone read any good Holmes pastiches they'd like to recommend?? I've ordered the new Anthony Horowitz novel and am quite looking forward to that but anything in the meantime would be appreciated!

As to audio books for me it very much depends on who's reading it. My journey to and from work is quite long and I don't always feel like music. I listened to Chris Barrie read Red Dwarf which was hilarious (not sure Red Dwarf is known in America :confused:) and I'm currently listening to Benedict Cumberbatch read The Memoirs of Casanova. Which is really good and Benedict's voice is so yummy I can get lost while he's reading! But I have had problems if the person reading sounds a bit flat or like they'd rather be anywhere else! Doctor Who audio is good but again only if it's read right. David Tennant was a very good reader, as is Matt Smith. I think if it's read more like a play I'm ok but one person reading me a novel tends to turn me off...

[Jennifer]

Amy,
I have had both experiences, a single reader and several readers doing it "play style" and I like both. But I have had really boring readers that made it difficult to get through a book. One of your faves, Stephen Fry is a great reader! So expressive! You made me want to check out anything read by Benedict Cumberbatch. His accent is so attractive, so good for reading. Just as Jenny Sterlin's is. Plummy! I think a good reader can really make a book easy to listen to.
Jennifer

[Strawberry Curls]

Amy, have you read Lyndsay Faye's "Dust and Shadow"? It was the best Holmes pastiche I've read in a very, very long time. I saw a bit about the "Barefoot on Baker St" and gave it a pass. Now I'm very happy..."working her way through the characters" UGH!!

I don't know when it will be available in the UK, but "A Study In Sherlock" will be out the end of Oct. in the US. It is the anthology Laurie and Les Klinger put together with writers doing short stories based or inspired by Holmes and canon. The early reviews are amazing, as is the list of writers contributing.

Here (http://astudyinsherlock.com/) is the link to the website with all the info and how to order. I can't wait!!

[Lenore]

And a wonderful book called "The Ladies' Axillary" by Tova Mirvis. (Lenore, do you know this book and author?) She is writing about an Orthodox Community in Memphis...


I've heard of the author, but not read either of her books. Part of the problem (aside from the problem we all share: too many books and too little time) touches on another topic of the past few days: Mirvis's books are not available in audio form. I began listening to audiobooks during a period when, for a variety of reasons, I had to spend a lot of time alone in the car. Traffic jams enraged me because I felt trapped -- unable either to get necessary work done or to enjoy myself. I became a poster child for road rage. Listening to talk radio bores me; listening to music has an unfortunate tendency to make me sleepy if I'm overtired, which is a lot of the time. (OK, it probably also means I'm a philistine.) When I discovered audio books, the world changed. Even at a traffic standstill for 30 minutes, I wasn't wasting time -- I was reading a book! And then I realized that time spent in other tasks that involved hands and eyes, but not all of my brain -- exercise, laundry, kitchen work, the little gardening I do -- could also become occasions for reading a book. And when I learned one could download them from the library onto a tiny mp3 player and go anywhere with them -- heaven!

I suppose it does take a little practice to listen when one is accustomed to visual reading, but it was well worth it to liberate myself from intense frustration and boredom. Even though I no longer spend hours trapped in my car, I have very little time for pleasure reading, but thanks to audiobooks, I probably average about a book a week.

BTW, at the moment I'm still listening to the first volume of William Manchester's biography of Churchill. The account of the senseless slaughter of British troops in WWI has made me want to re-read Justice Hall. And now I am a little surprised at the account of British action during the Russian Revolution of 1917. Although I took a Russian history course in college (and did well!), I did not remember that foreign troops, including British troops, opposed the Bolsheviks, and that American troops were also present on Russian soil.

[Jennifer]

Lenore,
Never occurred to me that Ladies Auxiliary would not be in audio form. I do not understand what merits an audio version and what does not. Never have. I am sure it's "sales" but Mirvis' two novels that I have read are wonderful and rate with any of the good books we have all read here. Just don't understand it.
Jennifer

[Lenore]

Another thing about the Manchester biography -- inappropriate, I know, but people on this list will find it understandable -- beginning in 1915, I ask myself at the mention of every date, "What are Holmes and Russell doing right now?":)

[Jennifer]

No that's a wonderful question. And a happy one to answer because weren't they just getting to know each other? I can not remember the exact date but Mary was born January 1, 1900 wasn't she? So she was that scrawny, lanky, hungry 15 year old, of course precociously telling Holmes about bees sometime in the late summer, wasn't it? I know someone knows the exact date...
Jennifer

[Strawberry Curls]

No that's a wonderful question. And a happy one to answer because weren't they just getting to know each other? I can not remember the exact date but Mary was born January 1, 1900 wasn't she? So she was that scrawny, lanky, hungry 15 year old, of course precociously telling Holmes about bees sometime in the late summer, wasn't it? I know someone knows the exact date...
JenniferActually Holmes and Russell met in early April 1915, and yes, she was a hungry, angry, and exceedingly strong-willed and precocious 15 year old at the time. LOL

[Jennifer]

Actually Holmes and Russell met in early April 1915, and yes, she was a hungry, angry, and exceedingly strong-willed and precocious 15 year old at the time. LOL
I knew someone would know! I don't have a copy on hand but I knew she had a coat and hat on, just wasn't sure what time of year it was...You always hear so much about how the weather is changeable in England! And I couldn't remember if the bee behavior had anything to do with the time of year! Maybe it's time to read BEEK again!
Jennifer

[AmyLizzie]

I can confirm the weather is VERY changeable in England!!

Alice - yes I have read 'Dust and Shadow' it was brilliant, but you do have to be careful; Holmes romance is not my cup of tea I'm afraid...but thanks for the suggestion!

[AmyLizzie]

Re. Weather for example, this week we have had temps of up to 29 degrees C, next week we're forcast snow...how does that work??!!

[SCWillson]

I'm starting Democratic Enlightenment: Philosophy, Revolution, and Human Rights, 1750-1790 by Jonathan Israel. This will take a while, it's about 950 pages plus bibliography and index.

This will be the third and final book in Israel's monumental history of the Enlightenment; the previous two (Radical Enlightenment: Philosophy and the Making of Modernity 1650-1750 and Enlightenment Contested: Philosophy, Modernity, and the Emancipation of Man 1670-1753) I read in 2007 and 2009 respectively. I've also read his book on the origins of the Spanish Inquisition and his excellent history of the Dutch Republic's golden age.

[Pat Floyd]

SC, does Israel go into the far-reaching effects of the Enlightenment into the 20th century?

[SCWillson]

SC, does Israel go into the far-reaching effects of the Enlightenment into the 20th century?I'm sure there will be some references, but Israel is at heart a historian of the Enlightenment itself.

I, who have been watching the fruits of the Enlightenment erode for at least as long as I've been alive and have been studying the Enlightenment itself for about 5 years, would have more comments but a mystery book discussion forum is really not the proper venue.

[annie]

We seem to meander onto other topics quite a lot, and this particular thread is not confined to mysteries & crimes.....
I do think that the detective story has been used for over a century to explore whatever currently worries people.
I have just read Matt Rees' 2nd Omar Yussef mystery, The Samaritan's Secret. Set in Palestine, it explores Arafat's hidden money. The ordinary people affected by extra-ordinary events are so beautifully drawn.

[Jennifer]

As is so common, I fell in love with "The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie" over a year after you all read it and have been pursuing the other books in the series. Just finished #2, (get ready for a lengthy title) "The Weed that Strings the Hangman's Bag." I will be honest and say that given the limitations of listening to a book, I only partly understood the title. Has something to do with a passage from Sir Walter Raleigh and the (apparent) method of killing used in the story. While I enjoyed the story, it was not as completely satisfying as #1 was. I have too many boundary conditions, one of them being a sick feeling whilst reading murder mysteries involving the death of children. Flavia, being completely self-possessed and assured in all of her eleven-year-old preciosity, is more than capable of asking the tough questions, hearing the heart-breaking answers. She does have her wounds but fortunately for her, they are not apparent to many in her path. I was so happy that some things that have been bothering her for 2 books now may have received a healthy bit of attention. If you have a mind to start this one, I say it's worth your time but do beware because there is a great deal of story before any obvious mayhem....
Jennifer

[Lenore]

Finished the second volume in the "Song of Ice and Fire" series, A Clash of Kings (a good listen), and have moved on to the second volume of William Manchester's biography of Churchill. I am finding depressing parallels between the years preceding World War II and current events.

[SCWillson]

Finished the second volume in the "Song of Ice and Fire" series, A Clash of Kings (a good listen), and have moved on to the second volume of William Manchester's biography of Churchill. I am finding depressing parallels between the years preceding World War II and current events.I believe it was Karl Marx who observed “History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.”

[Jennifer]

That whole idea of history repeating itself always bothered me. I guess it's based on human nature and the human condition which doesn't ever seem to evolve. Just as we seem to be gaining ground in one area, another comes completely undone...But history repeating itself does have an allegorical tone to it. I remember when I started reading LOTR, coming across all the lore about it. And reading Tolkien's letters where he flatly denied LOTR was a WWII allegory...That was comforting somehow...
Jennifer

[SCWillson]

That whole idea of history repeating itself always bothered me. I guess it's based on human nature and the human condition which doesn't ever seem to evolve.Ecclesiastes 1:9

What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

People really don't change, as the ancient Hebrews observed around the third century BC. ;)

[Jennifer]

Yes, Ecclesiastes is a wonderful book for quotations on human nature. And I fear that without God, we can never make much progress out of our often sorry state. You set me up for that, Steve...
Jennifer

[Lenore]

I believe it was Karl Marx who observed “History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.”

Let's hope he was right, and history does not repeat itself as a second tragedy.

[SCWillson]

Let's hope he was right, and history does not repeat itself as a second tragedy.Well, Marx was wrong about most things so let's hope this is another such. But personally I think we're in for a second Great Depression, and I suspect the result in the US and Europe will look a lot more like 1930's and early 40's Europe than America. :(

[Lenore]

Well, Marx was wrong about most things so let's hope this is another such. But personally I think we're in for a second Great Depression, and I suspect the result in the US and Europe will look a lot more like 1930's and early 40's Europe than America. :(

Well, I hope he's wrong about history repeating itself (although Santayana was of the same mind: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."), but if he's right about that part, I hope he's right that the repetition is farce rather than another tragedy. We're all hoping you are wrong about a second Great Depression, but it's difficult (for me, anyway) not to share your pessimism. And equally difficult not to worry that the same kind of worldwide violence will accompany the depression.

[Lenore]

Not sure where this message should go -- probably not here -- so moderator (or anyone else with know-how) should feel free to move this post to somewhere more useful.

If you want to see how Beersheva looked to Russell and Holmes in 1918, today's edition of the blog called Israel's History - a Picture a Day, http://www.israeldailypicture.com/, has terrific photos of Beersheva taken 1900 through 1917.